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为一个问题

2
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玄奘偷渡出了大唐

3
00:00:03,947 --> 00:00:05,072
你有没有想过

4
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一个人为了搞清楚一个学术问题

5
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愿意走多远

6
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有个和尚

7
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为了弄明白一件事

8
00:00:11,346 --> 00:00:14,791
放弃了长安最好的寺院 最高的学术地位

9
00:00:14,827 --> 00:00:15,932
一个人偷渡出境

10
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穿过八百里沙漠

11
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翻过帕米尔高原的雪山

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走了十七年

13
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差点死了好几次

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他不是在逃难

15
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也不是在传教

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他就是有一个问题

17
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问遍了全中国

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没人能回答他

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哈喽

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大家好

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我是王利杰

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上一期我们说到鸠摩罗什去世之后

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中国人开始试着自己写注疏 立学派

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可是在那些学派真正成形之前

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佛学界先经历了一段非常混乱的时期

26
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混乱在哪里呢

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鸠摩罗什翻译了很多经

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但他不可能翻译所有的经

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他去世之后

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印度那边的佛学还在发展

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新的论著 新的学派不断冒出来

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陆续又有一批翻译家来到中国

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其中最重要的一位叫真谛

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南北朝时期从印度来的

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他翻译了大量唯识学的经典

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可是问题来了

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真谛翻译和解读的东西

38
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和印度本土护法一系的正统解读

39
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有些地方对不上

40
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不是小地方

41
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是很关键的地方

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比方说

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关于人的意识到底有几层这件事

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一边说有八层

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一边说还有第九层

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这听起来好像只是一个数字的差别

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其实不是

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这直接决定了你怎么理解人的心灵结构

49
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怎么理解修行的方向

50
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一个问题的答案不一样

51
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整套修行的路径都会跟着变

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而且不只是这一个问题

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佛性到底是先天就有

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还是后天才能开发

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空和有之间的关系到底该怎么摆

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不同的翻译版本给出了不同的答案

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各地的寺院按照不同的译本教学

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僧人们拿到的修行指南彼此矛盾

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你在长安学的是一套

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你跑到金陵去

61
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听到的又是另一套

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到底该听谁的

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没人说得清

64
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我在经典解读系列里

65
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已经专门讲过

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其中一段翻译分歧的来龙去脉

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这里不再展开

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我想说的是

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这些分歧累积在一起造成了什么后果

70
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两百年

71
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整整两百年

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从鸠摩罗什去世到玄奘出发

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中国的佛学界为这些分歧争了两百年

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每个学者都有自己的解读

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每个学派都觉得自己是对的

76
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但谁也说服不了谁

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为什么说服不了

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因为大家手里拿着的都是翻译

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没有一个人读过梵文原典

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你说你的翻译对

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他说他的翻译对

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但你们谁都没见过原文

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凭什么判断谁对谁错

84
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这就是当时的困境

85
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不是没人聪明

86
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不是没人用功

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是信息的源头被翻译这道墙隔断了

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所有人都在二手信息里打转

89
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在这个背景下

90
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有一个年轻的和尚坐不住了

91
00:03:03,863 --> 00:03:04,287
玄奘

92
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俗姓陈

93
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大约在公元六百零二年出生

94
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关于他的出生年份有两种说法

95
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六百年和六百零二年

96
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学界至今没有定论

97
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他十三岁出家

98
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进了洛阳的净土寺

99
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这个人从小就显出了一种不一样的劲头

100
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别人可能一辈子钻研一部经就够了

101
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他不行

102
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他二十岁出头

103
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就已经把当时能找到的重要经论

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学了一遍

105
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他从洛阳出发

106
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跑到成都 长安 相州

107
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跟着不同地方 不同学派的老师一个一个地学

108
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他不是走马观花

109
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他是真的去坐下来

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把每个版本吃透

111
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可是学得越多

112
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他越不对劲

113
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因为他发现

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不同老师讲的东西不一样

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不是理解上的小偏差

116
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是底层的说法就不一致

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这个老师说的修行方向

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和那个老师说的完全相反

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有些经论相互之间甚至是矛盾的

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他去问老师

121
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老师也说不清楚

122
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不是老师水平不行

123
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是老师也只读过翻译

124
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也没办法回到梵文源头去验证

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他甚至听说在印度有一部非常完整的瑜伽师地论

126
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系统性地把修行的理论和方法讲了个遍

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一百卷

128
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可是中国只翻译了零星的片段

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完整的原文还在印度

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你可能也有过类似的感受

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你在一个领域里读了很多书

132
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每本书说的都有道理

133
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可是书和书之间就是对不上

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你想找一个源头性的权威说法

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找不到

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所有人都在引用别人的引用

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没有人见过原始文件

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这种感觉会让你抓狂

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玄奘做了一个决定

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他要亲自去印度

141
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去佛学的源头

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读梵文原典

143
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找当时印度最顶尖的学者当面请教

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他要把困扰中国佛学界两百年的那些问题

145
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一个一个搞清楚

146
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这个决定听上去很壮烈

147
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可是执行起来

148
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第一步就撞了墙

149
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当时是唐朝初年

150
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李世民刚刚登基不久

151
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北边突厥的威胁还在

152
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边境管控非常严格

153
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普通百姓不能随便出境

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玄奘正式向朝廷递了申请

155
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要求出关西行

156
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朝廷没有批准

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换成别人

158
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可能也就算了

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但玄奘没有算了

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他决定偷渡

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这件事大约发生在公元七世纪二十年代末

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有人说是六二七年

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有人说是六二九年

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学者们的说法不太统一

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总之在那一年的某个夜晚

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他一个人离开了长安

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往西走了

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没有官方的通关文牒

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没有护卫

170
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甚至没有同伴

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就一个人

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一匹马

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上路了

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他先是沿着河西走廊往西走

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从凉州到甘州

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到肃州

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一路躲着官府的关卡

178
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因为他是非法出境

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不能走大路

180
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白天藏起来

181
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晚上赶路

182
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靠沿途的僧人和信众偷偷接应

183
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有一次在瓜州

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官府已经发了追捕他的公文

185
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当地接到了命令要拦截他

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幸亏当地一个州吏同情他

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私下把追捕的文书拿来给他看

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确认他就是那个人之后

189
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当着他的面把文书撕毁了

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催他赶紧走

191
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再晚一步

192
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他就被抓回去了

193
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可他没有停

194
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过了玉门关再往西

195
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就是莫贺延碛

196
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那是一片大约八百里的沙漠

197
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八百里是什么概念

198
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三四百公里的无人地带

199
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没有水源

200
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没有路标

201
00:06:45,089 --> 00:06:46,973
只有漫天的黄沙和风

202
00:06:47,488 --> 00:06:50,613
玄奘在这片沙漠里走了五天四夜

203
00:06:51,048 --> 00:06:51,793
五天四夜

204
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滴水未进

205
00:06:53,649 --> 00:06:55,733
白天的温度高到让人眩晕

206
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晚上又冷得打哆嗦

207
00:06:58,329 --> 00:07:00,413
满眼望去只有沙丘

208
00:07:00,449 --> 00:07:02,192
连个影子都看不到

209
00:07:02,587 --> 00:07:03,533
后来的记载说

210
00:07:03,868 --> 00:07:05,312
走到第四天的时候

211
00:07:05,348 --> 00:07:06,533
他几乎要放弃了

212
00:07:06,747 --> 00:07:08,312
想要掉头往回走

213
00:07:08,747 --> 00:07:11,072
但他之前给自己立过一条规矩

214
00:07:11,147 --> 00:07:12,913
宁可往西走一步死

215
00:07:12,988 --> 00:07:14,593
也不往东退一步活

216
00:07:14,868 --> 00:07:16,426
他就靠着这一条规矩

217
00:07:16,428 --> 00:07:17,752
又往前走了一天

218
00:07:18,147 --> 00:07:19,192
到了第五夜

219
00:07:19,228 --> 00:07:21,752
他骑的那匹老马突然改变了方向

220
00:07:21,827 --> 00:07:23,392
径直往一个方向跑

221
00:07:23,627 --> 00:07:25,212
马把他带到了一小片绿洲

222
00:07:25,548 --> 00:07:26,312
有草

223
00:07:26,312 --> 00:07:27,110
有水

224
00:07:27,428 --> 00:07:29,512
他靠着这口水活了下来

225
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这段经历后来被很多人引用过

226
00:07:32,267 --> 00:07:33,832
说它是信念的力量

227
00:07:34,587 --> 00:07:36,872
但我觉得这不是信念不信念的问题

228
00:07:36,988 --> 00:07:39,546
这是一个人被一个问题逼到了那个份上

229
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已经没有退路了

230
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穿过沙漠之后

231
00:07:42,884 --> 00:07:44,368
他到了高昌国

232
00:07:44,683 --> 00:07:47,608
高昌在今天新疆的吐鲁番一带

233
00:07:47,683 --> 00:07:50,248
当时是西域的一个独立王国

234
00:07:50,603 --> 00:07:51,908
国王叫麴文泰

235
00:07:52,363 --> 00:07:54,288
是个虔诚的佛教信徒

236
00:07:54,764 --> 00:07:56,149
麴文泰见到玄奘

237
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非常惊喜

238
00:07:58,004 --> 00:08:01,048
他太想留住这个学问高深的僧人了

239
00:08:01,163 --> 00:08:03,728
他给玄奘提供了最好的食宿

240
00:08:03,803 --> 00:08:05,488
想要封他做国师

241
00:08:05,524 --> 00:08:06,728
请他留下来

242
00:08:07,004 --> 00:08:08,069
但玄奘跟他说

243
00:08:08,404 --> 00:08:09,488
我发过愿

244
00:08:09,524 --> 00:08:11,089
一定要到印度去

245
00:08:11,243 --> 00:08:12,428
你可以留住我的人

246
00:08:12,723 --> 00:08:14,248
但留不住我的心

247
00:08:14,764 --> 00:08:15,308
据记载

248
00:08:15,644 --> 00:08:18,329
玄奘在高昌绝食了三天

249
00:08:19,084 --> 00:08:20,189
麴文泰拗不过他

250
00:08:20,483 --> 00:08:21,843
最终不仅放行

251
00:08:21,844 --> 00:08:24,483
还送了他大量的盘缠 随行人员

252
00:08:24,483 --> 00:08:27,882
并且写了二十四封致沿途西域各国的国书

253
00:08:27,884 --> 00:08:31,187
请他们一路照应这个东土来的僧人

254
00:08:31,543 --> 00:08:32,567
离开高昌之后

255
00:08:32,903 --> 00:08:34,627
路并没有变得更容易

256
00:08:34,983 --> 00:08:35,887
他翻越了天山

257
00:08:36,262 --> 00:08:37,428
经过碎叶城

258
00:08:37,583 --> 00:08:39,188
然后是帕米尔高原

259
00:08:39,463 --> 00:08:41,667
帕米尔平均海拔四千多米

260
00:08:41,823 --> 00:08:43,348
积雪终年不化

261
00:08:43,662 --> 00:08:44,487
大雪封路

262
00:08:44,782 --> 00:08:45,948
严寒缺氧

263
00:08:46,142 --> 00:08:48,828
随行的人马有一部分没有走过去

264
00:08:49,382 --> 00:08:51,468
他穿过了今天的中亚腹地

265
00:08:51,662 --> 00:08:54,987
经过一个又一个政权不断更替的小国

266
00:08:55,343 --> 00:08:57,068
有的国王以礼相待

267
00:08:57,103 --> 00:08:58,907
派人护送他到下一站

268
00:08:59,183 --> 00:09:00,728
有的地方战乱未歇

269
00:09:01,022 --> 00:09:02,147
盗匪横行

270
00:09:02,422 --> 00:09:04,348
他几次差点被劫杀

271
00:09:04,703 --> 00:09:06,627
但他每次都活了下来

272
00:09:07,223 --> 00:09:09,068
就这样走了大约一年多

273
00:09:09,183 --> 00:09:11,243
他终于踏上了印度的土地

274
00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:13,603
到了印度也不是终点

275
00:09:13,718 --> 00:09:16,483
他又在次大陆上游历了很长时间

276
00:09:16,518 --> 00:09:18,678
寻访各地的寺院和学者

277
00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,003
了解印度佛学的各个流派

278
00:09:21,398 --> 00:09:22,838
他最终的目的地

279
00:09:22,838 --> 00:09:26,643
是当时整个佛教世界里学术地位最高的地方

280
00:09:26,718 --> 00:09:27,843
那烂陀寺

281
00:09:28,439 --> 00:09:31,444
那烂陀寺在今天印度的比哈尔邦

282
00:09:31,959 --> 00:09:33,763
这不是一座普通的寺庙

283
00:09:34,199 --> 00:09:35,804
它更像一所大学

284
00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:40,044
而且是那个年代全世界规模最大的学术机构之一

285
00:09:40,518 --> 00:09:41,324
据记载

286
00:09:41,398 --> 00:09:45,924
常年有数千名甚至上万名学僧在这里学习和研究

287
00:09:46,319 --> 00:09:48,164
寺里有巨大的藏经楼

288
00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:51,084
收藏了海量的梵文经典和论著

289
00:09:51,799 --> 00:09:53,184
从因明学到医学

290
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,284
从声明到天文

291
00:09:55,358 --> 00:09:57,483
各种学科都有人教授

292
00:09:57,799 --> 00:10:00,404
各地的僧人和学者慕名而来

293
00:10:00,439 --> 00:10:03,604
在这里辩论 写作 切磋

294
00:10:03,839 --> 00:10:05,984
而玄奘千里迢迢要找的人

295
00:10:06,278 --> 00:10:07,244
就在这里

296
00:10:07,599 --> 00:10:08,823
那烂陀寺的住持

297
00:10:09,198 --> 00:10:10,403
戒贤法师

298
00:10:11,119 --> 00:10:12,484
玄奘到达的时候

299
00:10:12,719 --> 00:10:14,764
戒贤已经超过一百岁了

300
00:10:15,158 --> 00:10:17,803
这个细节你要放在心里体会一下

301
00:10:18,198 --> 00:10:21,764
戒贤法师是护法论师的亲传弟子

302
00:10:22,158 --> 00:10:25,203
护法是唯识学的一位集大成者

303
00:10:25,479 --> 00:10:27,443
从佛陀那个时代算起

304
00:10:27,558 --> 00:10:29,764
这条法脉一路传下来

305
00:10:29,839 --> 00:10:33,683
经过无著 世亲 陈那 护法

306
00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:34,923
传到了戒贤

307
00:10:35,479 --> 00:10:38,584
这是一条绵延了一千多年的传承链

308
00:10:39,020 --> 00:10:41,065
而戒贤已经一百多岁了

309
00:10:41,339 --> 00:10:43,425
他随时可能离开这个世界

310
00:10:43,780 --> 00:10:45,864
如果玄奘再晚到几年

311
00:10:45,940 --> 00:10:47,504
这个人就见不到了

312
00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:51,504
这条从印度延续了上千年的传承线索

313
00:10:51,660 --> 00:10:55,305
就在中国佛学界最需要它的时候断掉了

314
00:10:55,660 --> 00:10:56,165
说白了

315
00:10:56,459 --> 00:10:57,905
这是最后一班车

316
00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:00,173
玄奘赶上了

317
00:11:00,647 --> 00:11:02,892
后来的传记里记载了一个故事

318
00:11:03,007 --> 00:11:06,492
说戒贤法师在几年前曾经生了一场大病

319
00:11:06,568 --> 00:11:07,652
痛不欲生

320
00:11:07,727 --> 00:11:09,413
几乎想要放弃生命

321
00:11:09,808 --> 00:11:11,693
但他在病中做了一个梦

322
00:11:11,847 --> 00:11:13,293
梦里有人告诉他

323
00:11:13,328 --> 00:11:15,132
会有一个东方来的僧人

324
00:11:15,168 --> 00:11:17,732
你要等着把毕生所学传给他

325
00:11:18,168 --> 00:11:21,012
戒贤就是凭着这句话多撑了几年

326
00:11:21,407 --> 00:11:23,727
这个梦到底是真实发生的

327
00:11:23,727 --> 00:11:25,132
还是后人的附会

328
00:11:25,288 --> 00:11:26,573
我没有办法判断

329
00:11:27,048 --> 00:11:28,852
但有一件事是确凿的

330
00:11:29,168 --> 00:11:31,732
戒贤把玄奘留在了那烂陀寺

331
00:11:31,887 --> 00:11:34,252
亲自为他讲授瑜伽师地论

332
00:11:35,088 --> 00:11:36,573
这部论一百卷

333
00:11:36,647 --> 00:11:40,053
是唯识学体系里最重要的基础文本之一

334
00:11:40,088 --> 00:11:42,612
后来玄奘全部翻译成了中文

335
00:11:43,007 --> 00:11:45,852
玄奘在印度前后待了大约十二年

336
00:11:46,166 --> 00:11:48,045
他不光在那烂陀学习

337
00:11:48,046 --> 00:11:49,726
还走遍了印度各地

338
00:11:49,727 --> 00:11:51,406
参加各种学术辩论

339
00:11:51,406 --> 00:11:53,252
了解不同学派的观点

340
00:11:53,487 --> 00:11:56,531
他在当时印度的学术圈里声誉极高

341
00:11:56,847 --> 00:11:57,691
据记载

342
00:11:57,766 --> 00:12:01,612
当时戒日王在曲女城召集了一场无遮大会

343
00:12:01,847 --> 00:12:03,691
各路学者汇聚一堂

344
00:12:03,967 --> 00:12:05,232
玄奘在会上立论

345
00:12:05,607 --> 00:12:06,891
整整十八天

346
00:12:07,007 --> 00:12:09,252
没有一个人能成功反驳他

347
00:12:09,727 --> 00:12:11,606
一个从东方来的僧人

348
00:12:11,607 --> 00:12:13,445
在印度的学术腹地

349
00:12:13,446 --> 00:12:16,212
用梵文和印度的学者们辩论

350
00:12:16,286 --> 00:12:17,332
而且赢了

351
00:12:17,607 --> 00:12:20,436
这在当时是极为轰动的事

352
00:12:20,592 --> 00:12:21,916
公元六四五年

353
00:12:22,031 --> 00:12:25,357
玄奘带着六百多部梵文经典回到了长安

354
00:12:25,752 --> 00:12:26,877
他离开的时候

355
00:12:26,992 --> 00:12:29,597
是一个违反禁令偷渡出境的人

356
00:12:29,831 --> 00:12:30,997
他回来的时候

357
00:12:31,191 --> 00:12:34,076
整个长安城的百姓夹道欢迎他

358
00:12:34,392 --> 00:12:36,396
唐太宗亲自接见了他

359
00:12:36,632 --> 00:12:38,056
从出发到归来

360
00:12:38,431 --> 00:12:39,757
整整十七年

361
00:12:40,071 --> 00:12:41,676
一个人最好的年华

362
00:12:41,752 --> 00:12:44,252
全部放在了路上和经卷里

363
00:12:44,566 --> 00:12:45,612
我常常想

364
00:12:45,767 --> 00:12:49,051
到底是什么支撑着一个人走完了这条路

365
00:12:49,326 --> 00:12:50,031
说是信仰

366
00:12:50,247 --> 00:12:51,612
我觉得不够准确

367
00:12:51,887 --> 00:12:53,411
信仰可以给你方向

368
00:12:53,527 --> 00:12:56,852
但不能替你在沙漠里扛过没水喝的那五天

369
00:12:57,127 --> 00:12:57,911
说是意志力

370
00:12:58,127 --> 00:12:59,051
也不全对

371
00:12:59,326 --> 00:13:01,612
单纯的意志力走不了十七年

372
00:13:01,767 --> 00:13:03,883
人不是那么设计的

373
00:13:04,158 --> 00:13:06,082
我觉得答案可能更简单

374
00:13:06,557 --> 00:13:07,643
就是一个问题

375
00:13:08,197 --> 00:13:10,922
一个他问了所有人都没人能回答的问题

376
00:13:11,597 --> 00:13:14,042
这个问题像一根刺一样扎在那里

377
00:13:14,158 --> 00:13:15,883
不拔出来就是不舒服

378
00:13:16,238 --> 00:13:19,545
它逼着他做出了在旁人看来疯狂的决定

379
00:13:19,979 --> 00:13:21,699
回过头来看这段历史

380
00:13:21,699 --> 00:13:23,064
你会发现一件事

381
00:13:23,339 --> 00:13:25,305
从鸠摩罗什到玄奘

382
00:13:25,339 --> 00:13:27,104
中间隔了两百多年

383
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:30,385
这两百年里中国佛学并不是没有进展

384
00:13:30,739 --> 00:13:33,344
很多学者在非常认真地做研究

385
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:34,464
写注疏

386
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:35,464
建学派

387
00:13:35,780 --> 00:13:39,104
可是他们始终绕不开一个根本性的瓶颈

388
00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:41,545
就是他们手里没有源头

389
00:13:41,819 --> 00:13:44,584
他们所有的工作都建立在翻译之上

390
00:13:44,739 --> 00:13:47,064
而翻译本身就带着偏差

391
00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:48,905
玄奘做的事情

392
00:13:49,020 --> 00:13:54,054
本质上是替整个中国佛学界去源头做了一次校准

393
00:13:54,449 --> 00:13:56,334
你可能也有过这种时候

394
00:13:57,049 --> 00:13:58,814
也许规模没有那么大

395
00:13:59,010 --> 00:14:01,015
但那个感觉是一样的

396
00:14:01,329 --> 00:14:03,015
你心里搁着一件事

397
00:14:03,289 --> 00:14:05,975
你知道答案不在你现在站的地方

398
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:08,814
不是等一等就会有人告诉你的那种

399
00:14:09,049 --> 00:14:10,728
是你不亲自走出去

400
00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:12,534
就永远没有答案的那种

401
00:14:13,169 --> 00:14:14,775
玄奘走出去了

402
00:14:15,209 --> 00:14:17,669
他找到了他要的答案

403
00:14:18,223 --> 00:14:20,868
他回来之后做了一件前无古人的事情

404
00:14:21,144 --> 00:14:23,708
这件事情的规模之大 精度之高

405
00:14:23,743 --> 00:14:26,629
放在整个人类翻译史上都极为罕见

406
00:14:27,024 --> 00:14:28,543
但这件事后来的命运

407
00:14:28,544 --> 00:14:31,108
比他去印度的旅程还要让人感慨

408
00:14:31,384 --> 00:14:31,889
下一期

409
00:14:32,184 --> 00:14:33,909
我们就来讲他带回来的东西

410
00:14:34,304 --> 00:14:34,649
以及

411
00:14:34,983 --> 00:14:36,607
他没有带回来的东西

412
00:14:37,251 --> 00:14:39,786
你觉得玄奘偷渡出关这件事

413
00:14:39,862 --> 00:14:41,191
放到今天来看

414
00:14:41,227 --> 00:14:42,697
算是一种什么样的精神

415
00:14:43,194 --> 00:14:45,121
你身边有没有过这样的人

416
00:14:45,122 --> 00:14:46,726
为了搞明白一件事

417
00:14:46,728 --> 00:14:48,761
做过让人觉得不太理智的决定

418
00:14:49,417 --> 00:14:50,286
聊聊你的想法

419
00:14:50,461 --> 00:14:51,511
我很想听

420
00:14:51,747 --> 00:14:52,495
我是王利杰

421
00:14:52,751 --> 00:14:53,659
我们下期见