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白马驮经之后

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汉语被动了一场大手术

3
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动这场手术的人

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一半是外国人

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他们的名字

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你多半一个都没听过

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先说那个你一定听过的故事

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东汉永平年间

9
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汉明帝做了一个梦

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梦里有个金人

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头顶放光

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在殿前飞

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第二天他问大臣

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这是什么

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有人说

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西方有神

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叫佛

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于是明帝派人往西去求法

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使者在路上遇见两位印度僧人

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用白马驮着经书和佛像

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回到洛阳

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朝廷为他们建了一座寺

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就叫白马寺

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这个故事太完美了

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完美到让人不忍心去查它

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可是一查

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就会碰到几个扎眼的地方

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那两位僧人的名字

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摄摩腾和竺法兰

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要到六世纪初成书的 出三藏记集 里才出现

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在那之前的记载里

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他们是没有名字的

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白马寺 这个寺名

34
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现存最早的出处

35
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是西晋竺法护译经的题记

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也就是说

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从那个梦

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到这些名字落在纸上

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中间隔了四百多年

40
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这件事学界一直有两派

41
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汤用彤先生认为

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传说背后有史实的影子

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梁启超和一些欧美 日本的学者

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则认为这是后人编出来的

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到今天也没有定论

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我不想在这里判案

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因为比 谁先来 更要紧的

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是另一个问题

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来了之后

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怎么说

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哈喽

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大家好

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我是王利杰

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上一期我们在印度收尾

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第三幕结束的时候

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大乘佛教在它的故乡

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已经走完了从破到立

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从立到统一的全程

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般若 中观 唯识 法华 华严

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一层比一层壮阔

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但那一切

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都是用梵文说的

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现在它要过来了

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要穿过沙漠

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翻过雪山

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进入一个说方块字 敬祖先 读老庄的世界

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第四幕开始

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我想先请你做一个小实验

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假设你回到公元二世纪的洛阳

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你面前坐着一位读 孝经 长大的读书人

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你要把 无我 这两个字讲给他听

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你怎么讲

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汉语里没有这个词

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不是没有对应的词

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是没有这个念头

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中国人讲修身

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讲克己

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孔子说过 毋意毋必毋固毋我

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听起来很像

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但至少就 论语 本文来说

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那讲的是不要臆测 不要武断

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不要固执 不要自以为是

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不是说没有一个我

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整个先秦思想里

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找不到一个位置

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能放下 根本就没有一个固定的我 这句话

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缘起也一样

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涅槃也一样

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般若更是

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所以第一批译经的人

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面对的不是一个翻译问题

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是汉语里缺零件

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公元一四八年

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一个外国人走进洛阳

95
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史传记载

96
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他是安息国的王子

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就是今天伊朗那一带的古国

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父亲死后他本该继位

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他把国让给叔叔

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自己出家了

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这段身世出自 高僧传 一类的传记

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可信度我们先放一边

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能确定的是

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他到洛阳的时间

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是汉桓帝建和二年

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他叫安世高

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姓安

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就是因为安息

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他在中国待了二十来年

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翻了不少经

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有意思的是他翻的内容

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安般守意经 阴持入经

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全是小乘的禅数之学

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安般守意

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讲的是把心守在呼吸上

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最入门的那一步叫数息

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一呼一吸算一次

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心里默默地数

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从一数到十

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再从头来

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数息后面还有随 止 观 还 净几步

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但门就是从数呼吸推开的

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一个手里握着整个佛教遗产的人

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第一次开口

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讲的是数呼吸

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我一直觉得这是个很聪明的选择

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因为方法不需要世界观撑腰

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你不必先接受无我

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先接受轮回

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才能坐下来数呼吸

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数呼吸这件事

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一个读 孝经 的人也能立刻上手

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他试了

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有点效果

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他就愿意听下一句

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这是传教策略吗

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也许是

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但我更愿意把它看成一种诚实

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安世高知道自己带来的东西太陌生了

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所以他从最不陌生的那一头递进去

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先给方法

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再谈道理

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安世高到洛阳三十年后

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另一个外国人在同一座城里

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做了完全相反的事

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他叫支娄迦谶

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一般简称支谶

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姓支

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是因为月支

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就是当时活跃在中亚的那个民族

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公元一七九年

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他译出 道行般若经

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这部经的分量在哪儿

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在于它第一次把般若的 空 比较完整地搬进了汉语

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在它之前

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中国人听到的佛教

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主要是禅法 戒律 因果报应

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而 道行般若经 讲的是

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一切现象本来就没有一个独立不变的内核

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顺带说一句

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这部经的原本不是支谶带来的

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是另一位叫竺佛朔的僧人带来的

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支谶负责口译

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译经从一开始就不是一个人的活

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现在问题来了

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这一整套汉语里根本没有的东西

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怎么翻

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支谶的办法是造词

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有一个核心概念

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指的是 事物本来的样子

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玄奘后来把它定译成 真如

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支谶当年翻成了另外两个汉字

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本无

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你听听这两个字

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本来就无

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这不是随手挑的

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中国人读 老子

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天下万物生于有

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有生于无

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无 这个字

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在当时读书人的脑子里

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早就有插座了

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支谶把佛教最陌生的概念

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插进了中国人最熟悉的那个插口

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这一下就通了

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读书人一看 本无

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眼睛一亮

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说我懂

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这跟老子讲的是一回事

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问题是

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不一样

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老子的 无

193
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在通行的读法里是万物的源头

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是生出 有 的那个东西

195
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而佛陀这一路讲的 本来的样子

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恰恰是说一切现象都没有一个独立不变的内核

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也没有一个总源头

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一个是在给世界找起点

199
00:06:33,987 --> 00:06:36,125
一个是在拆掉所有的起点

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方向正好相反

201
00:06:37,987 --> 00:06:40,925
而且这个译名后来还长出了自己的枝叶

202
00:06:41,187 --> 00:06:42,266
南北朝的时候

203
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有一派干脆用 本无 这两个字去讲空

204
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被后人叫作本无宗

205
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一个翻译上的选择

206
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最后长成了一个学派

207
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我做投资这些年

208
00:06:53,356 --> 00:06:55,136
见过太多这种场面

209
00:06:55,317 --> 00:06:57,435
你跟人讲一个全新的商业模式

210
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对方点头如捣蒜

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说我懂我懂

212
00:07:00,396 --> 00:07:02,375
这不就是那谁谁做的那个吗

213
00:07:02,796 --> 00:07:03,435
他懂的

214
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是他脑子里本来就有的东西

215
00:07:06,637 --> 00:07:07,776
你那个新东西

216
00:07:07,836 --> 00:07:10,055
从他耳朵边上滑过去了

217
00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:12,355
所以翻译的本质

218
00:07:12,356 --> 00:07:13,935
不是找一个对应的词

219
00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:16,935
是在对方的脑子里找一个插座

220
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插对了

221
00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:19,295
灯亮了

222
00:07:19,637 --> 00:07:20,315
插错了

223
00:07:20,637 --> 00:07:21,855
电器烧了

224
00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:23,276
更麻烦的是

225
00:07:23,596 --> 00:07:25,656
插错了灯也一样会亮

226
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你根本看不出来

227
00:07:27,764 --> 00:07:28,444
还有一条路

228
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是干脆不翻

229
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你读佛经

230
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会碰到一堆认不出的词

231
00:07:33,324 --> 00:07:38,104
般若 菩提 涅槃 阿耨多罗三藐三菩提

232
00:07:38,244 --> 00:07:39,244
这些都是音译

233
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就是照着梵文的读音

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硬拼出来的汉字

235
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为什么不翻

236
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拿般若说

237
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你把它翻成 智慧

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中国人立刻就懂

239
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但懂到的是另一件事

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汉语里的智慧

241
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说的是一个人聪明 有见识 会办事

242
00:07:55,124 --> 00:07:56,463
而般若说的是

243
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看穿一切现象没有自性的那种洞察

244
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这两件事不在一个层面上

245
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倒不是说智慧这个词不好

246
00:08:04,924 --> 00:08:07,263
是它在汉语里已经装满了东西

247
00:08:07,444 --> 00:08:09,504
你再往里塞一个全新的意思

248
00:08:09,605 --> 00:08:10,544
塞不进去

249
00:08:10,965 --> 00:08:11,804
翻成智慧

250
00:08:12,004 --> 00:08:12,763
读者懂了

251
00:08:13,004 --> 00:08:14,184
但懂偏了

252
00:08:14,405 --> 00:08:14,804
不翻

253
00:08:15,124 --> 00:08:15,843
读者不懂

254
00:08:16,244 --> 00:08:17,744
可他知道自己不懂

255
00:08:18,085 --> 00:08:18,444
不懂

256
00:08:18,764 --> 00:08:20,287
比懂错了要好

257
00:08:20,669 --> 00:08:23,147
后人把这套原则归到玄奘名下

258
00:08:23,149 --> 00:08:24,188
叫 五种不翻

259
00:08:24,868 --> 00:08:25,787
不过要说一句

260
00:08:26,068 --> 00:08:27,827
这五条最完整的记载

261
00:08:27,828 --> 00:08:31,568
要晚到南宋法云的 翻译名义集 才出现

262
00:08:31,789 --> 00:08:33,267
是不是玄奘本人定的

263
00:08:33,589 --> 00:08:34,887
学者还有保留

264
00:08:35,068 --> 00:08:36,767
但道理是站得住的

265
00:08:37,029 --> 00:08:38,967
有时候留一个听不懂的词

266
00:08:39,029 --> 00:08:40,448
是对读者的尊重

267
00:08:40,588 --> 00:08:43,007
它等于在文本里立了一块牌子

268
00:08:43,007 --> 00:08:43,749
告诉你

269
00:08:43,749 --> 00:08:44,727
这里有个东西

270
00:08:44,749 --> 00:08:45,627
你现在还没有

271
00:08:45,869 --> 00:08:47,780
得自己去长出来

272
00:08:48,001 --> 00:08:49,199
汉末天下大乱

273
00:08:49,521 --> 00:08:50,940
一批人往南跑

274
00:08:51,161 --> 00:08:52,979
支谦就是其中之一

275
00:08:53,241 --> 00:08:54,560
他是月支人的后裔

276
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,999
生在中国

277
00:08:56,001 --> 00:08:57,260
从小说汉语

278
00:08:57,401 --> 00:08:58,979
他的老师叫支亮

279
00:08:59,121 --> 00:09:01,060
支亮的老师就是支谶

280
00:09:01,361 --> 00:09:03,359
当时有句话叫 天下博知

281
00:09:03,641 --> 00:09:04,440
不出三支

282
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,219
说的就是这一脉

283
00:09:06,521 --> 00:09:07,999
支谦南下到了东吴

284
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,780
孙权很看重他

285
00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,540
他在江南译了 维摩诘经 大明度经 等等

286
00:09:13,761 --> 00:09:14,920
也是在这段时间

287
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,599
中国翻译史上

288
00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,489
第一场理论争论被记了下来

289
00:09:19,991 --> 00:09:21,129
事情是这样的

290
00:09:21,470 --> 00:09:24,150
有人从西域带来了 法句经 的本子

291
00:09:24,151 --> 00:09:25,209
找人翻译

292
00:09:25,511 --> 00:09:26,270
初稿出来

293
00:09:26,551 --> 00:09:28,089
大家聚在一起讨论

294
00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:29,810
有人当场提意见

295
00:09:29,911 --> 00:09:31,749
说这个译本文采不够

296
00:09:31,751 --> 00:09:32,729
太糙了

297
00:09:33,031 --> 00:09:34,810
另一派立刻反驳

298
00:09:34,950 --> 00:09:36,190
他们搬出老子的话

299
00:09:36,671 --> 00:09:37,749
美言不信

300
00:09:37,751 --> 00:09:38,509
信言不美

301
00:09:38,991 --> 00:09:40,729
漂亮话往往不可靠

302
00:09:40,830 --> 00:09:42,890
可靠的话往往不漂亮

303
00:09:43,110 --> 00:09:46,489
又说佛陀讲法是顺着当时人的语言讲的

304
00:09:46,511 --> 00:09:47,749
重在意思传到

305
00:09:47,751 --> 00:09:48,810
不在辞藻

306
00:09:48,991 --> 00:09:51,129
所以这一派的结论是四个字

307
00:09:51,310 --> 00:09:52,530
实宜经达

308
00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:53,150
直接给

309
00:09:53,350 --> 00:09:54,290
别修饰

310
00:09:54,950 --> 00:09:57,229
这段辩论被写进了 法句经序

311
00:09:57,751 --> 00:09:59,849
序的作者一般认为是支谦

312
00:09:59,911 --> 00:10:01,566
或者跟他同时代的人

313
00:10:01,907 --> 00:10:03,726
有意思的地方在这儿

314
00:10:04,106 --> 00:10:06,846
记下这番反对意见的支谦本人

315
00:10:06,947 --> 00:10:08,846
恰恰属于 文 的那一派

316
00:10:09,266 --> 00:10:10,986
他自己译经的风格

317
00:10:10,986 --> 00:10:14,365
是把话说得漂亮 顺口 像中文

318
00:10:14,947 --> 00:10:16,706
他把反对自己的理由

319
00:10:16,707 --> 00:10:18,525
原原本本记了下来

320
00:10:18,866 --> 00:10:20,686
这件事我很佩服

321
00:10:21,187 --> 00:10:22,145
而这场争论

322
00:10:22,427 --> 00:10:25,045
一千八百年后还没结束

323
00:10:25,707 --> 00:10:26,505
忠于原文

324
00:10:26,707 --> 00:10:27,905
还是忠于读者

325
00:10:28,746 --> 00:10:31,086
你今天读一本翻译过来的书

326
00:10:31,266 --> 00:10:33,206
觉得这翻得真别扭

327
00:10:33,346 --> 00:10:35,966
你站的是反对支谦的那一边

328
00:10:36,466 --> 00:10:39,005
你读到一本特别流畅的译本

329
00:10:39,106 --> 00:10:40,106
心里犯嘀咕

330
00:10:40,587 --> 00:10:42,446
他是不是加了自己的话

331
00:10:42,667 --> 00:10:44,686
你又站回支谦的对面

332
00:10:45,067 --> 00:10:46,606
两边都有道理

333
00:10:47,346 --> 00:10:49,095
麻烦就麻烦在这儿

334
00:10:49,395 --> 00:10:50,954
公元二四七年

335
00:10:50,956 --> 00:10:53,615
一位叫康僧会的僧人到了建业

336
00:10:53,756 --> 00:10:55,214
也就是今天的南京

337
00:10:55,716 --> 00:10:58,015
孙权为他建了一座建初寺

338
00:10:58,315 --> 00:11:00,975
这被看作江南有佛寺的开始

339
00:11:01,435 --> 00:11:03,115
佛教从北方的洛阳

340
00:11:03,395 --> 00:11:04,975
走到了长江以南

341
00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:06,235
再往后

342
00:11:06,596 --> 00:11:08,015
公元三世纪末

343
00:11:08,076 --> 00:11:09,694
出了一位竺法护

344
00:11:09,915 --> 00:11:10,954
他世居敦煌

345
00:11:11,356 --> 00:11:13,454
当时的人叫他敦煌菩萨

346
00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:14,834
公元二八六年

347
00:11:15,116 --> 00:11:16,515
他译出 正法华经

348
00:11:17,116 --> 00:11:18,255
一百多年后

349
00:11:18,275 --> 00:11:21,334
鸠摩罗什又把同一部经重译了一遍

350
00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:23,875
那就是我们今天读的 妙法莲华经

351
00:11:24,756 --> 00:11:25,395
同一部经

352
00:11:25,716 --> 00:11:27,088
两个译本

353
00:11:27,709 --> 00:11:29,448
他一生译了多少部经

354
00:11:29,470 --> 00:11:30,968
历代记载对不上

355
00:11:31,270 --> 00:11:32,789
有说一百五十四部的

356
00:11:32,789 --> 00:11:34,188
有说两百一十部的

357
00:11:34,189 --> 00:11:35,848
有说一百七十五部的

358
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:37,588
今天学者考订下来

359
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:39,289
大约一百六十部左右

360
00:11:39,510 --> 00:11:41,068
这种数字上的混乱

361
00:11:41,069 --> 00:11:42,889
本身就说明了一件事

362
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:44,188
那个时代的译经

363
00:11:44,189 --> 00:11:46,088
已经多到没人数得清了

364
00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:48,188
竺法护还有一个贡献

365
00:11:48,189 --> 00:11:50,529
是把翻译变成了一条流水线

366
00:11:50,909 --> 00:11:51,749
一个人口授

367
00:11:51,949 --> 00:11:53,029
一个人笔录

368
00:11:53,029 --> 00:11:55,049
另有人负责校对和推敲

369
00:11:55,549 --> 00:11:58,088
翻译从此不再是一门个人手艺

370
00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:59,968
它成了一项集体工程

371
00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:01,789
但工程规模再大

372
00:12:01,789 --> 00:12:04,289
那个最根本的难题还在那儿

373
00:12:04,909 --> 00:12:06,639
汉语里缺零件

374
00:12:07,179 --> 00:12:09,139
于是就有了一个专门的办法

375
00:12:09,260 --> 00:12:10,279
叫格义

376
00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:12,639
高僧传 里给它下过一个定义

377
00:12:12,819 --> 00:12:14,519
说的是竺法雅这个人

378
00:12:14,860 --> 00:12:16,338
把佛经里的名相

379
00:12:16,339 --> 00:12:19,019
一条一条去配佛经以外的书

380
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:20,179
作为解释的范例

381
00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:21,919
这就叫格义

382
00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:23,578
佛经以外的书

383
00:12:23,579 --> 00:12:26,098
主要指 老子 庄子 周易

384
00:12:26,579 --> 00:12:28,519
说白了就是查对照表

385
00:12:28,979 --> 00:12:29,419
涅槃

386
00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:30,679
配无为

387
00:12:31,020 --> 00:12:31,578
阿罗汉

388
00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:32,838
配真人

389
00:12:33,179 --> 00:12:33,659
禅定

390
00:12:33,979 --> 00:12:34,998
配守一

391
00:12:35,339 --> 00:12:36,878
效果立竿见影

392
00:12:37,179 --> 00:12:38,799
一个读过 庄子 的人

393
00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:41,118
你跟他说阿罗汉就是真人

394
00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:42,358
他马上懂了

395
00:12:42,459 --> 00:12:43,939
你说涅槃就是无为

396
00:12:44,339 --> 00:12:45,676
他点头

397
00:12:46,138 --> 00:12:48,037
但你想想他懂到了什么

398
00:12:48,138 --> 00:12:50,716
他懂到的是庄子笔下的真人

399
00:12:50,777 --> 00:12:54,436
那个御风而行 与天地精神往来的形象

400
00:12:54,577 --> 00:12:56,257
而阿罗汉是一个

401
00:12:56,258 --> 00:12:58,336
把贪嗔痴连根拔掉

402
00:12:58,577 --> 00:13:00,157
不再受后有的人

403
00:13:00,378 --> 00:13:03,277
这两个人活在完全不同的宇宙里

404
00:13:03,537 --> 00:13:05,476
无为和涅槃更是

405
00:13:05,657 --> 00:13:07,216
无为是顺应自然

406
00:13:07,417 --> 00:13:08,716
不强行作为

407
00:13:08,858 --> 00:13:11,596
涅槃是烦恼的彻底熄灭

408
00:13:11,858 --> 00:13:14,017
有位观众在评论区说过一句话

409
00:13:14,018 --> 00:13:15,037
我印象很深

410
00:13:15,417 --> 00:13:15,737
他说

411
00:13:16,138 --> 00:13:18,517
路标本来是帮你找路的

412
00:13:18,618 --> 00:13:21,676
可有时候路标自己变成了路障

413
00:13:21,978 --> 00:13:23,917
格义就是这么一件事

414
00:13:24,297 --> 00:13:26,356
它是当时唯一能用的桥

415
00:13:26,697 --> 00:13:27,176
没有它

416
00:13:27,537 --> 00:13:29,157
佛教根本过不来

417
00:13:29,978 --> 00:13:31,176
但走过桥的人

418
00:13:31,457 --> 00:13:33,678
脚上都沾着桥的味道

419
00:13:34,098 --> 00:13:35,578
第一个公开喊停的人

420
00:13:35,899 --> 00:13:36,717
是道安

421
00:13:37,139 --> 00:13:40,558
道安大约生在公元三一二年或者三一四年

422
00:13:40,858 --> 00:13:42,237
三八五年去世

423
00:13:42,578 --> 00:13:43,337
有意思的是

424
00:13:43,659 --> 00:13:44,837
他不懂梵文

425
00:13:45,179 --> 00:13:47,717
他在译场里的角色不是译者

426
00:13:47,978 --> 00:13:50,158
是校订和把关的那个人

427
00:13:50,618 --> 00:13:52,717
高僧传 里记了他一句话

428
00:13:53,139 --> 00:13:54,217
他对一位同门说

429
00:13:54,858 --> 00:13:56,117
先旧格义

430
00:13:56,299 --> 00:13:57,517
于理多违

431
00:13:58,019 --> 00:14:00,038
从前那套格义的办法

432
00:14:00,179 --> 00:14:02,958
跟道理对不上的地方太多了

433
00:14:03,539 --> 00:14:05,398
但我要替他说句公道话

434
00:14:05,738 --> 00:14:08,237
道安自己早年也用过格义

435
00:14:08,539 --> 00:14:11,438
后来他的弟子慧远在讲 实相 的时候

436
00:14:11,858 --> 00:14:13,717
听众怎么也听不进去

437
00:14:13,938 --> 00:14:15,078
反复诘难

438
00:14:15,779 --> 00:14:17,877
慧远引了 庄子 来打比方

439
00:14:17,978 --> 00:14:19,117
一比就通了

440
00:14:19,299 --> 00:14:20,898
道安为此特许慧远

441
00:14:21,139 --> 00:14:22,558
可以不废俗书

442
00:14:22,659 --> 00:14:26,078
也就是允许他读 他引佛经以外的书

443
00:14:26,179 --> 00:14:28,597
所以他不是把工具砸了

444
00:14:28,738 --> 00:14:30,717
他是给工具划了一条线

445
00:14:31,019 --> 00:14:31,938
方便可以用

446
00:14:32,299 --> 00:14:35,198
但不能把方便当成结论

447
00:14:35,539 --> 00:14:36,617
公元三八二年

448
00:14:36,858 --> 00:14:38,277
道安写了一篇序

449
00:14:38,458 --> 00:14:41,997
里面留下了中国翻译史上最重要的一份清单

450
00:14:42,258 --> 00:14:45,198
后人把它叫作五失本 三不易

451
00:14:45,618 --> 00:14:46,877
失本的意思是

452
00:14:46,978 --> 00:14:49,397
译文不得不偏离原本的样子

453
00:14:49,579 --> 00:14:51,757
他一口气列了五种情形

454
00:14:51,939 --> 00:14:52,338
第一

455
00:14:52,858 --> 00:14:55,357
梵文的语序跟汉语是反的

456
00:14:55,419 --> 00:14:56,058
不掉个头

457
00:14:56,299 --> 00:14:57,438
中国人读不懂

458
00:14:57,579 --> 00:14:58,257
可掉了头

459
00:14:58,579 --> 00:15:00,157
就不是原来的样子了

460
00:15:00,338 --> 00:15:00,657
第二

461
00:15:01,019 --> 00:15:02,497
原典的文字很朴素

462
00:15:02,659 --> 00:15:03,798
不加修饰

463
00:15:03,899 --> 00:15:05,058
可中国人爱文采

464
00:15:05,378 --> 00:15:06,997
不修饰就没人读

465
00:15:07,138 --> 00:15:08,058
为了让它流通

466
00:15:08,258 --> 00:15:09,078
只能加

467
00:15:09,338 --> 00:15:09,698
第三

468
00:15:10,098 --> 00:15:12,838
原典在赞叹的地方会反复咏叹

469
00:15:12,939 --> 00:15:15,277
同一个意思说三遍四遍

470
00:15:15,978 --> 00:15:16,698
翻成中文

471
00:15:16,899 --> 00:15:18,757
这些重复被删掉了

472
00:15:19,098 --> 00:15:19,537
第四

473
00:15:20,098 --> 00:15:21,718
原典的正文后面

474
00:15:21,779 --> 00:15:24,117
常常还跟着一大段重述

475
00:15:24,299 --> 00:15:26,117
有时候一千五百字

476
00:15:26,419 --> 00:15:27,017
汉译里

477
00:15:27,299 --> 00:15:28,478
整段砍掉

478
00:15:28,899 --> 00:15:29,257
第五

479
00:15:29,779 --> 00:15:32,117
讲完一段要换话题的时候

480
00:15:32,338 --> 00:15:35,558
原典会先把前面复述一遍再往下讲

481
00:15:35,939 --> 00:15:37,257
这些承前的复述

482
00:15:37,539 --> 00:15:38,678
也全删了

483
00:15:38,939 --> 00:15:39,818
五条列完

484
00:15:40,258 --> 00:15:41,637
他没有下禁令

485
00:15:41,939 --> 00:15:42,938
他只说了一句

486
00:15:43,498 --> 00:15:45,357
碰上这五种走样

487
00:15:45,419 --> 00:15:47,637
再加上下面要说的三条

488
00:15:47,899 --> 00:15:49,458
把外文译成汉文

489
00:15:49,819 --> 00:15:51,748
怎么能不慎重呢

490
00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:53,569
然后他又列了三条

491
00:15:54,010 --> 00:15:55,149
叫三不易

492
00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:56,988
这三条该怎么读

493
00:15:57,010 --> 00:15:59,029
一千多年来学者还在吵

494
00:15:59,370 --> 00:16:01,468
有人读作三件不容易的事

495
00:16:01,729 --> 00:16:04,269
有人读作三件不可以改动的事

496
00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:06,189
到今天也没吵出结果

497
00:16:06,329 --> 00:16:08,388
但意思的骨架是清楚的

498
00:16:08,689 --> 00:16:08,888
一

499
00:16:09,329 --> 00:16:11,988
佛陀是顺着当时人的风俗讲法的

500
00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:13,449
如今风俗变了

501
00:16:13,449 --> 00:16:15,149
你删掉那些古雅的东西

502
00:16:15,250 --> 00:16:16,329
去迎合现在的人

503
00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:17,468
这是一难

504
00:16:17,618 --> 00:16:18,419
二

505
00:16:18,489 --> 00:16:21,868
佛陀的境界和普通人的理解之间隔着天渊

506
00:16:22,170 --> 00:16:24,289
你要把千年前圣人的微言

507
00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:26,208
讲得让今天的凡夫听懂

508
00:16:26,209 --> 00:16:27,189
这是二难

509
00:16:27,809 --> 00:16:28,008
三

510
00:16:28,329 --> 00:16:30,169
当年阿难背诵出来

511
00:16:30,170 --> 00:16:33,748
五百位罗汉一遍遍核对 一遍遍抄写

512
00:16:33,770 --> 00:16:35,468
尚且战战兢兢

513
00:16:35,729 --> 00:16:37,868
如今离佛陀已经一千年

514
00:16:37,930 --> 00:16:39,848
却要由我们这些平常人

515
00:16:39,849 --> 00:16:42,708
凭着近世的见识来裁断取舍

516
00:16:42,809 --> 00:16:43,949
这是三难

517
00:16:44,290 --> 00:16:45,488
我读到第三条的时候

518
00:16:45,849 --> 00:16:47,072
后背有点凉

519
00:16:47,533 --> 00:16:48,493
道安在做的事

520
00:16:48,773 --> 00:16:50,072
其实非常现代

521
00:16:50,454 --> 00:16:52,592
他没有说我们要翻得更准

522
00:16:53,094 --> 00:16:53,773
他说的是

523
00:16:54,134 --> 00:16:56,192
这件事本身就有损耗

524
00:16:56,334 --> 00:16:58,153
而且损耗是必然的

525
00:16:58,214 --> 00:16:59,832
不是译者不够努力

526
00:17:00,334 --> 00:17:01,052
你能做的

527
00:17:01,334 --> 00:17:03,233
只是知道自己丢了什么

528
00:17:03,693 --> 00:17:06,993
这就是我觉得这一整幕最值得记住的地方

529
00:17:07,413 --> 00:17:09,633
我们这个系列一直在追一个问题

530
00:17:10,053 --> 00:17:11,393
每往前走一步

531
00:17:11,413 --> 00:17:12,732
是离佛陀更近了

532
00:17:12,973 --> 00:17:13,813
还是更远了

533
00:17:14,493 --> 00:17:15,532
到了译经这一步

534
00:17:15,933 --> 00:17:17,672
答案是两边都对

535
00:17:18,094 --> 00:17:18,772
往近了说

536
00:17:19,253 --> 00:17:20,293
没有这些人

537
00:17:20,294 --> 00:17:22,353
你我今天一个字都读不到

538
00:17:22,774 --> 00:17:23,492
往远了说

539
00:17:23,854 --> 00:17:26,432
从本无到真人到无为

540
00:17:26,574 --> 00:17:29,032
每一个汉字都带着中国的口音

541
00:17:29,733 --> 00:17:31,012
佛法一进汉语

542
00:17:31,014 --> 00:17:33,556
就被汉语重新塑了一遍形

543
00:17:33,977 --> 00:17:35,475
不过还有一件事

544
00:17:35,497 --> 00:17:37,516
比经文本身影响更大

545
00:17:37,896 --> 00:17:39,715
梁启超做过一个统计

546
00:17:39,977 --> 00:17:42,375
他说日本人编的那部 佛教大辞典

547
00:17:42,737 --> 00:17:44,756
收了三万五千多个词条

548
00:17:45,017 --> 00:17:45,735
据此推断

549
00:17:46,096 --> 00:17:47,895
汉语因为佛经翻译

550
00:17:47,896 --> 00:17:50,556
增加了三万五千多个语汇和观念

551
00:17:50,856 --> 00:17:52,756
这个说法后来被传成

552
00:17:52,777 --> 00:17:54,655
汉语新增了三万五千个词

553
00:17:55,176 --> 00:17:56,316
那是夸大了

554
00:17:56,456 --> 00:17:59,195
梁启超说的是一部辞典的收词量

555
00:17:59,416 --> 00:18:01,155
但就算打个大折扣

556
00:18:01,217 --> 00:18:03,195
剩下的也足够惊人

557
00:18:03,656 --> 00:18:04,135
刹那

558
00:18:04,456 --> 00:18:05,996
是译经带进来的

559
00:18:06,096 --> 00:18:06,496
烦恼

560
00:18:06,856 --> 00:18:07,356
是

561
00:18:07,616 --> 00:18:08,056
实际

562
00:18:08,416 --> 00:18:08,915
是

563
00:18:09,057 --> 00:18:09,496
真谛

564
00:18:09,777 --> 00:18:10,596
也是

565
00:18:11,297 --> 00:18:13,715
你今天说世界 说现在

566
00:18:13,737 --> 00:18:14,975
这两个词的用法

567
00:18:14,977 --> 00:18:17,036
也跟译经脱不开关系

568
00:18:17,456 --> 00:18:18,675
这就有意思了

569
00:18:19,057 --> 00:18:20,276
那些译经的人

570
00:18:20,297 --> 00:18:22,475
拼命想把佛法搬进汉语

571
00:18:22,696 --> 00:18:24,915
佛法有没有完整地搬进来

572
00:18:24,977 --> 00:18:26,796
学者们到今天还在吵

573
00:18:27,136 --> 00:18:28,056
但汉语本身

574
00:18:28,376 --> 00:18:29,915
被永久地改造了

575
00:18:30,217 --> 00:18:31,556
你不需要信佛

576
00:18:31,777 --> 00:18:33,356
你只要开口说中文

577
00:18:33,376 --> 00:18:35,036
你就在用他们造的词

578
00:18:35,537 --> 00:18:37,135
一场翻译最深的成功

579
00:18:37,537 --> 00:18:38,756
是它消失了

580
00:18:39,096 --> 00:18:42,092
你完全不觉得那是外来的东西

581
00:18:42,754 --> 00:18:43,352
说到这儿

582
00:18:43,514 --> 00:18:45,293
我想讲点自己的感受

583
00:18:45,514 --> 00:18:46,312
我做投资

584
00:18:46,593 --> 00:18:48,652
很多时候在干同一件事

585
00:18:48,793 --> 00:18:50,572
把一个技术团队的语言

586
00:18:50,633 --> 00:18:52,852
翻译成市场能听懂的语言

587
00:18:53,113 --> 00:18:54,572
做这个频道也是

588
00:18:54,674 --> 00:18:58,812
我每一期都在把佛学 科学 哲学的语言

589
00:18:58,833 --> 00:19:01,253
翻成你我平时说话的语言

590
00:19:01,514 --> 00:19:03,892
我太清楚这里面有损耗了

591
00:19:04,073 --> 00:19:04,953
每一次简化

592
00:19:05,153 --> 00:19:06,172
都会丢东西

593
00:19:06,514 --> 00:19:07,592
每一个比喻

594
00:19:07,593 --> 00:19:09,812
都会带进不属于原意的东西

595
00:19:10,274 --> 00:19:12,533
我刚才用插座比喻翻译

596
00:19:12,633 --> 00:19:14,852
这个比喻能帮你快速进门

597
00:19:14,954 --> 00:19:17,013
但它本身不是那个东西

598
00:19:17,954 --> 00:19:20,713
所以道安那句 怎么能不慎重呢

599
00:19:20,873 --> 00:19:24,213
我看成是对所有做转述的人说的

600
00:19:24,714 --> 00:19:26,213
你没法不失真

601
00:19:26,674 --> 00:19:29,680
你只能知道自己在哪里失真

602
00:19:30,020 --> 00:19:31,120
回到这一幕

603
00:19:31,540 --> 00:19:32,720
到目前为止

604
00:19:32,861 --> 00:19:35,359
佛教在中国还是一件外来的事

605
00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:36,539
它有译本

606
00:19:36,861 --> 00:19:37,839
有寺庙

607
00:19:37,980 --> 00:19:39,160
有一批信众

608
00:19:39,421 --> 00:19:42,400
但它还没有真正长进中国人的骨头里

609
00:19:42,780 --> 00:19:43,960
还缺一个人

610
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:48,440
一个能把文和质这场吵了将近两百年的争论

611
00:19:48,461 --> 00:19:50,739
直接用作品了结掉的人

612
00:19:50,740 --> 00:19:52,599
公元四零一年年底

613
00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:54,680
这个人走进了长安城

614
00:19:55,101 --> 00:19:55,779
在那之前

615
00:19:56,141 --> 00:19:57,819
他已经被当作战利品

616
00:19:57,820 --> 00:20:00,120
扣在西北整整十七年

617
00:20:00,621 --> 00:20:01,180
下一期

618
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:02,848
我们讲他

619
00:20:03,953 --> 00:20:04,258
好了

620
00:20:04,526 --> 00:20:05,747
今天就到这里

621
00:20:05,748 --> 00:20:07,445
我很想听听你的看法

622
00:20:07,580 --> 00:20:10,022
你有没有读过同一本书的两个译本

623
00:20:10,023 --> 00:20:11,968
感觉像是两本完全不同的书

624
00:20:12,503 --> 00:20:14,296
或者在你自己的工作里

625
00:20:14,297 --> 00:20:16,299
你有没有当过那个翻译的人

626
00:20:16,319 --> 00:20:18,532
把一套语言搬给另一群人

627
00:20:18,534 --> 00:20:19,793
中间丢掉了什么

628
00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:21,795
欢迎在评论区聊聊

629
00:20:21,969 --> 00:20:22,655
我是王利杰

630
00:20:22,885 --> 00:20:23,893
我们下期见