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Sthavira and Mahasamghika:

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Why did they split?

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In the last episode, we discussed

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the Second Council, where a single copper coin

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tore Buddhism in two.

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But that was just a surface crack.

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The real Great Schism

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occurred over the following one or two centuries.

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The essence of this split

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went far beyond a matter of money.

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It asked a question that remains unanswered to this day:

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After the Buddha passed away,

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who is qualified to define the Dharma?

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Hello,

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everyone.

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I am Wang Lijie.

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Today, we are going to talk about

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the most pivotal split in Buddhist history:

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The formation of the Sthavira and Mahasamghika schools.

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If you consult traditional Buddhist historical records,

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most books will tell you a very dramatic story.

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The protagonist of the story is named Mahadeva.

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This man, Mahadeva,

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in the records of the Sthavira school,

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is depicted as the ultimate villain of Buddhism.

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Legend has it that he committed three heinous crimes:

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killing his father, his mother, and an Arhat.

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Later, he joined the monastic order,

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but he stirred up an ideological earthquake within the Sangha.

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He proposed five very bold claims,

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later known as the "Five Points of Mahadeva."

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What were these five points about?

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The core message can be summed up in one sentence:

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Arhats are not as perfect as you think.

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Specifically:

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First,

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an Arhat can still be tempted by celestial demons in dreams,

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leading to impurity.

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Second,

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an Arhat may still have ignorance regarding things they don't know.

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Third,

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an Arhat can still experience doubt on certain matters.

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Fourth,

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an Arhat's enlightenment needs validation from others,

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as they might not be fully certain on their own.

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Fifth,

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the path to enlightenment can be advanced through vocalization,

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such as shouting "What suffering!" during practice;

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this exclamation can serve as a catalyst for entering the Path.

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Hearing this, you might think,

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"These five points don't seem like a big deal."

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But in the Buddhist world at the time,

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these five points were like a bomb.

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Why?

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Because in traditional understanding,

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the Arhat was the ultimate achievement of spiritual practice.

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All afflictions were severed,

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the cycle of birth and death was ended,

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and there would be no more rebirth.

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He was the living proof of the Buddha's teachings,

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the absolute ceiling of the entire system.

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If an Arhat still has impurity, ignorance, and doubt,

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then can the methods the Buddha taught

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actually solve the problem?

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It's like a company advertising that

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using their product guaranteed a complete cure,

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only for someone to stand up and say,

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"Actually, there's a 5% residual symptom after use."

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Wouldn't that company be panicked?

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And this wasn't just a theoretical issue.

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For monks who staked their whole lives on practice,

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becoming an Arhat was their only goal.

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When you tell them

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that even upon reaching this goal, flaws remain,

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it's like telling a mountain climber,

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"You've exhausted yourself to reach what you thought was the peak,

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but it isn't the true summit;

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there is another level above that you can't even see."

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You can imagine the panic.

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This was more than just an academic debate.

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This is life's ultimate gamble.

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According to the Mahavibhasha of the Sarvastivada school,

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after Mahadeva proposed his Five Points,

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the monastic community fell into total chaos.

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The majority supported Mahadeva.

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Those who opposed him were the senior elders.

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The majority faction eventually became the Mahasamghika,

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while the minority of elders formed the Sthavira school.

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A debate over the perfection of Arhats

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ended up splitting the entirety of Buddhism.

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Thus far,

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the story seems complete,

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and quite dramatic.

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However,

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modern academic research suggests

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this story may not be the whole truth.

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Since the 20th century,

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scholars like Master Yin Shun, Akira Hirakawa, and Lu Cheng

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have compared texts from different schools

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and reached an important conclusion.

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The Five Points of Mahadeva did happen,

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but they likely weren't the cause of the Great Schism.

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They were more likely a trigger for a later internal split in the Mahasamghika,

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which later generations traced back

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and pinned onto the original schism.

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This is actually common in history.

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People like to find a simple,

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dramatic starting point for complex historical processes.

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A traitor,

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an argument,

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a single catalyst.

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Like the later Protestant Reformation,

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many remember the image of Martin Luther nailing

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the Ninety-five Theses to the church door.

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But the actual process of the split was far more complex.

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The Great Schism of Buddhism was the same.

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Real history

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is the slow accumulation of many forces over a long period,

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eventually manifesting as a specific event in a single moment.

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That event is the effect,

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not the cause.

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So, what caused the actual Great Schism?

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The answer might surprise you.

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It wasn't doctrinal differences,

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it was over the monastic code (Vinaya).

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More accurately,

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it were about a question of principle:

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For rules not explicitly set by the Buddha,

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did the elders have the right to add them?

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The "Ten Unlawful Points" we discussed last time,

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outwardly about using copper coins,

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was fundamentally about this logic.

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One group of elders believed

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the precepts set by the Buddha were the baseline.

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But as times changed and geography varied,

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they felt elders had the right to add new rules above this baseline

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to make the sangha more disciplined and standardized.

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Another group believed

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that if the Buddha didn't say it,

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you cannot add it.

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The Buddha's precepts were a closed system,

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not an open one.

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Do you see the tension here?

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Both sides felt they were protecting the Buddha's legacy.

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One side said,

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"I am perfecting it."

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The other side said,

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"Your 'perfecting' process is actually tampering."

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This gets interesting.

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Guess which side ultimately added more rules?

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The answer is the Sthavira school.

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If you compare the Vinaya texts of different schools,

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you'll find a counterintuitive fact.

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The Mahasamghika code,

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specifically the Pratimoksha,

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has only 67 rules in the Saikhadharma section.

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Yet in the Sthavira system,

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the same section has 75 or even more.

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In other words,

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the Sthavira, known as the conservatives,

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was actually the party that added new rules

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to the Buddha's original precepts.

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Meanwhile, the Mahāsāṃghika, labeled as reformers,

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maintained fewer disciplinary rules.

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They might actually be closer to the original version from the Buddha's time.

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The side claiming to be conservative

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actually made the most changes.

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The gap between labels and facts

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can sometimes be quite ironic.

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Moreover, there is a deeper issue hidden within this.

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The name 'Sthaviravāda'—

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'Sthavira' means Elder,

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referring to monks with age and seniority.

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While 'Mahāsāṃghika'—

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means 'The Great Assembly' or the majority.

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So, from their names alone,

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the essence of this split was

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a confrontation between a few authoritative elders and the majority of ordinary monks.

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The elders felt they were qualified to establish rules

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because they were closer to the Buddha.

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They had heard the Buddha's teachings in person,

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or their teachers had.

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But the majority felt that

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the Buddha's Dharma was meant for everyone,

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not just a select few.

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Your seniority doesn't mean your understanding is more correct than others'.

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This tension between the elite and the masses

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has still not disappeared 2,500 years later.

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Today, pick any field—

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technology, politics, education—

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the tug-of-war between expert authority and public voice

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is the same structural problem faced by those monks long ago.

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This reminds me of a common paradox in modern organizational management.

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After a founder leaves,

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the faction claiming to be most loyal to the founder's legacy

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is often not the one that changes nothing,

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but the one that actively adds new systems and standards.

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Their logic is that

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the founder's spirit must be institutionalized to endure.

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The other side's logic is,

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'What the founder left behind is everything.'

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Every new rule you add

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is secretly altering his original intent.

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Both sides believe they are the orthodox ones,

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and both have their reasons.

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This deadlock

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has remained unresolved

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for 2,500 years.

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But the split didn't stop at the level of precepts.

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Over time,

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the two camps began to move in completely different theological directions.

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The Sthavira lineage later developed the highly intricate Abhidharma philosophy,

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the Buddha's teachings into the smallest analytical units,

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trying to describe the mechanics of all things using a pseudo-scientific method.

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Its most important branch was the Sarvāstivāda.

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Their core claim was that 'all exists in the three periods of time'

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and that the essence of dharmas is eternal.

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Meaning all 'dharmas'—past, present, and future—

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the fundamental elements that constitute the world,

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possess a real, intrinsic existence.

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This is similar to the approach of ancient Greek atomism,

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where there's a set of unchanging basic particles at the base of everything.

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And what about the Mahāsāṃghika?

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They took a completely different path.

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Their understanding of the Buddha himself

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began to undergo a fundamental change.

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In the records of Early Buddhism,

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the Buddha was a human being;

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an enlightened human,

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but human nonetheless.

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He would get sick,

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have back pain,

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get indigestion,

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and eventually die of old age at eighty.

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The Agamas contain many details of the Buddha as an ordinary man.

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The disciples remembered his greatness,

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but also his humanity.

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However, the Mahāsāṃghika began to propose a very different view of the Buddha.

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This change didn't happen overnight.

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After the Buddha passed away,

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For later generations of monks and lay followers who never met him,

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memory of the Buddha relied increasingly on oral storytelling.

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As these stories spread,

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they naturally drifted toward the divine and the supernatural.

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Because when you have never met someone in person,

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you can only understand them through narratives,

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and stories, by nature, condense and amplify.

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Ordinary details are forgotten,

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while extraordinary moments are told repeatedly.

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Slowly,

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Siddhartha the human, who had backaches and digestive issues,

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began to transform into a completely different being in the collective memory.

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The Mahāsāṃghika school systematized this shift in collective memory.

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They claimed

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that the Buddha was supramundane (lokottara).

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The Buddha's physical body,

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the flesh-and-blood form seen with the naked eye,

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was merely a manifestation.

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His true existence transcended time and space.

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The Buddha's lifespan was infinite,

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his divine power limitless.

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Every word he spoke turned the Wheel of Dharma.

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He could preach with a single voice,

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yet all beings would understand it according to their own nature.

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Meaning, when he spoke a single sentence,

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different people would hear different Teachings,

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and exactly what they needed to hear most.

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Do you see?

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This is no longer describing an awakened human being.

270
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It is describing an omniscient, omnipotent, and transcendent entity.

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This shift was extremely significant

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because it meant that,

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00:10:28,783 --> 00:10:30,355
starting with the Mahāsāṃghika,

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a force to deify the Buddha emerged within Buddhism.

275
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And this force,

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centuries later,

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00:10:36,623 --> 00:10:41,235
would flow directly into Mahayana ideals of the Bodhisattva and the Trikaya theory.

278
00:10:41,863 --> 00:10:44,056
The complex system of the Dharmakāya, Saṃbhogakāya,

279
00:10:44,102 --> 00:10:46,355
and Nirmāṇakāya—the Three Bodies of Buddha—

280
00:10:46,383 --> 00:10:49,916
had its seeds planted in this Mahāsāṃghika shift.

281
00:10:50,229 --> 00:10:51,028
Meanwhile,

282
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though Mahādeva's Five Points may not be the cause of the Great Schism,

283
00:10:54,383 --> 00:10:56,196
the core question they raised—

284
00:10:56,423 --> 00:10:58,436
is an Arhat truly perfect?—

285
00:10:58,462 --> 00:11:01,755
became an underlying theme in Mahāsāṃghika thought.

286
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Think about it:

287
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If an Arhat is still imperfect,

288
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should becoming one still be the ultimate goal of practice?

289
00:11:08,942 --> 00:11:10,936
Is there a higher spiritual attainment than Arhatship?

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00:11:11,623 --> 00:11:12,581
Centuries later,

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Mahayana Buddhism gave a clear answer:

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Yes.

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Don't just be an Arhat.

294
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Be a Bodhisattva.

295
00:11:18,743 --> 00:11:20,216
Don't just seek personal liberation.

296
00:11:20,503 --> 00:11:21,995
Strive to save all sentient beings.

297
00:11:22,222 --> 00:11:23,696
Don't stop at the stillness of Nirvana.

298
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Seek the 'Non-Abiding Nirvana.'

299
00:11:25,863 --> 00:11:26,716
This trajectory,

300
00:11:26,743 --> 00:11:29,716
starting from the theory of the Arhat's imperfection,

301
00:11:29,743 --> 00:11:32,235
stretched all the way to the explosion of the Mahayana revolution.

302
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The seeds were already sown here.

303
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Think about it.

304
00:11:36,342 --> 00:11:38,196
The Mahāsāṃghika did two things:

305
00:11:38,469 --> 00:11:39,222
First,

306
00:11:39,222 --> 00:11:42,836
they elevated the Buddha from a human to a transcendent being.

307
00:11:43,068 --> 00:11:43,863
Second,

308
00:11:43,863 --> 00:11:47,235
they demoted the Arhat from the finish line to a mere waypoint.

309
00:11:47,543 --> 00:11:48,995
Between this elevation and demotion,

310
00:11:49,023 --> 00:11:52,316
room was created for the Bodhisattva ideal.

311
00:11:52,783 --> 00:11:55,796
The Buddha became the unattainable ultimate height,

312
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while the Arhat became just a stage along the way.

313
00:11:58,623 --> 00:12:00,621
The vast distance in between

314
00:12:00,623 --> 00:12:02,596
is the path the Bodhisattva must travel.

315
00:12:02,822 --> 00:12:03,916
Interestingly,

316
00:12:04,023 --> 00:12:06,235
the Sthavira school did not move in this direction at all.

317
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They insisted

318
00:12:07,623 --> 00:12:10,956
there is no essential difference in liberation between a Buddha and an Arhat.

319
00:12:11,182 --> 00:12:14,395
The only difference is that the Buddha discovered the path himself,

320
00:12:14,423 --> 00:12:16,235
whereas the Arhat is one who follows it.

321
00:12:16,543 --> 00:12:17,655
The destination is the same.

322
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The only difference is who arrives first.

323
00:12:19,903 --> 00:12:21,022
These two understandings—

324
00:12:21,023 --> 00:12:23,316
one elevates the Buddha to the height of a god,

325
00:12:23,423 --> 00:12:25,796
the other keeps the Buddha in the place of a human.

326
00:12:25,982 --> 00:12:28,336
Which one do you think is closer to the Buddha's own intent?

327
00:12:28,982 --> 00:12:30,596
There is no rush to answer this question.

328
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Just keep it in mind for now.

329
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So you see,

330
00:12:33,182 --> 00:12:35,316
the split between Sthavira and Mahasanghika

331
00:12:35,342 --> 00:12:36,936
was a dispute over precepts on the surface,

332
00:12:37,263 --> 00:12:38,995
but underneath, it was a struggle for power—

333
00:12:39,023 --> 00:12:41,556
specifically, the power to interpret the Dharma.

334
00:12:41,783 --> 00:12:44,475
And deeper still, it was a struggle over direction:

335
00:12:44,783 --> 00:12:46,816
Where exactly should Buddhism go?

336
00:12:47,182 --> 00:12:51,035
Should the Buddha's teachings be locked in a precise analytical system

337
00:12:51,062 --> 00:12:52,456
to ensure they remain unchanged word-for-word,

338
00:12:52,982 --> 00:12:56,115
or should they evolve with the needs of the times,

339
00:12:56,302 --> 00:13:00,535
even evolving things the Buddha himself might not have explicitly said?

340
00:13:01,143 --> 00:13:02,015
Between these two directions,

341
00:13:02,383 --> 00:13:04,076
there is no right or wrong.

342
00:13:04,503 --> 00:13:07,115
Each responds to a genuine need.

343
00:13:07,543 --> 00:13:10,302
The Sthavira responds to the need for purity.

344
00:13:10,302 --> 00:13:11,062
"Don't change it;

345
00:13:11,062 --> 00:13:12,475
original flavor is best."

346
00:13:12,822 --> 00:13:15,395
The Mahasanghika responds to the need for vitality.

347
00:13:15,503 --> 00:13:19,755
A living teaching must respond to new questions from living people.

348
00:13:20,182 --> 00:13:23,275
We discussed this in the episode on Buddhist "factory settings."

349
00:13:23,462 --> 00:13:26,475
Distinguishing between original and aftermarket isn't about ranking them.

350
00:13:26,663 --> 00:13:28,035
Think about your phone.

351
00:13:28,102 --> 00:13:31,515
The few super apps you use most every day

352
00:13:31,743 --> 00:13:33,235
were not part of the original settings.

353
00:13:33,423 --> 00:13:35,902
The factory-installed calls and text messaging

354
00:13:35,903 --> 00:13:38,076
are likely the functions you use least now.

355
00:13:38,342 --> 00:13:42,436
But you wouldn't dismiss a super app just because it isn't original,

356
00:13:42,543 --> 00:13:46,475
nor would you call calling superior just because it's a factory feature.

357
00:13:46,623 --> 00:13:47,696
Originality and utility

358
00:13:48,023 --> 00:13:49,196
are two different dimensions.

359
00:13:49,423 --> 00:13:51,875
But what truly fascinates me is something else.

360
00:13:52,182 --> 00:13:52,895
Remember?

361
00:13:53,423 --> 00:13:55,336
Before his passing, the Buddha said,

362
00:13:55,863 --> 00:13:57,115
"Be an island unto yourself,

363
00:13:57,182 --> 00:13:58,355
be an island unto the Dharma."

364
00:13:58,702 --> 00:13:59,456
Rely on yourself;

365
00:14:00,023 --> 00:14:00,875
rely on the Dharma.

366
00:14:01,222 --> 00:14:02,755
He did not appoint a successor.

367
00:14:02,783 --> 00:14:04,716
He left no unalterable dogmas.

368
00:14:04,903 --> 00:14:09,200
He didn't even clarify what he meant to Ananda

369
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,076
when he said "minor precepts could be abolished."

370
00:14:10,342 --> 00:14:11,501
Have you ever wondered?

371
00:14:11,503 --> 00:14:13,676
This might not have been an oversight by the Buddha,

372
00:14:13,702 --> 00:14:16,096
but perhaps his deepest teaching.

373
00:14:16,783 --> 00:14:19,035
How could someone who truly understands Dependent Origination

374
00:14:19,182 --> 00:14:23,399
believe that a fixed system could apply eternally

375
00:14:23,399 --> 00:14:24,375
to all eras

376
00:14:24,743 --> 00:14:25,535
and all places?

377
00:14:26,222 --> 00:14:28,436
The gray areas he left behind

378
00:14:28,462 --> 00:14:31,796
might be his final act of trust in future generations.

379
00:14:32,102 --> 00:14:33,515
Judge for yourselves,

380
00:14:33,942 --> 00:14:35,155
practice for yourselves,

381
00:14:35,623 --> 00:14:36,875
make mistakes for yourselves,

382
00:14:37,302 --> 00:14:38,556
and correct them for yourselves.

383
00:14:39,102 --> 00:14:41,316
The Buddha-Dharma is not preserved;

384
00:14:41,743 --> 00:14:45,515
it is lived anew by each generation.

385
00:14:45,663 --> 00:14:45,975
Of course,

386
00:14:46,302 --> 00:14:47,176
this also means

387
00:14:47,423 --> 00:14:49,035
that schism is inevitable.

388
00:14:49,383 --> 00:14:50,135
It is not a tragedy,

389
00:14:50,462 --> 00:14:51,436
nor a fall from grace.

390
00:14:51,503 --> 00:14:53,235
It is the natural result of Dependent Origination.

391
00:14:53,383 --> 00:14:55,662
A seed falling into different soils

392
00:14:55,663 --> 00:14:57,155
will grow into different shapes.

393
00:14:57,263 --> 00:14:58,135
This isn't betrayal;

394
00:14:58,543 --> 00:14:59,635
this is being alive.

395
00:15:00,062 --> 00:15:02,395
But the split didn't stop at two camps.

396
00:15:02,623 --> 00:15:05,956
Once the Sthavira and Mahasanghika stabilized,

397
00:15:06,023 --> 00:15:08,635
a new round of internal division began.

398
00:15:08,982 --> 00:15:10,255
From two to four,

399
00:15:10,503 --> 00:15:11,916
from four to eight,

400
00:15:12,062 --> 00:15:14,836
traditionally ending with eighteen schools.

401
00:15:14,942 --> 00:15:16,235
In reality, there may have been more.

402
00:15:16,702 --> 00:15:17,981
Each new branch

403
00:15:17,982 --> 00:15:21,275
addressed a new aspect of the same core question.

404
00:15:21,663 --> 00:15:23,936
How did this forest grow, step by step?

405
00:15:24,462 --> 00:15:27,816
What understanding of Dharma did each branch represent?

406
00:15:28,481 --> 00:15:29,263
In the next episode,

407
00:15:29,263 --> 00:15:31,956
we will map out the full panorama of Nikaya Buddhism.

408
00:15:32,222 --> 00:15:35,436
Within the ambiguity left by the Buddha,

409
00:15:35,543 --> 00:15:39,035
between Sthavira's preservation and Mahasamghika's adaptation,

410
00:15:39,222 --> 00:15:41,216
which do you think is closer to the Buddha's original intent?

411
00:15:41,702 --> 00:15:42,216
Or perhaps,

412
00:15:42,462 --> 00:15:44,176
the question itself is flawed.

413
00:15:44,743 --> 00:15:47,196
Tell me your thoughts in the comments.

414
00:15:47,423 --> 00:15:48,096
I'm Wang Lijie.

415
00:15:48,302 --> 00:15:49,121
See you next time.