1
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没有波旬

2
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佛陀成不了佛

3
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上两期

4
00:00:04,304 --> 00:00:06,753
我们聊了帝释天和魔王波旬

5
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帝释天是善业的天花板

6
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波旬是不让你看到天花板的守门人

7
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那两期发出去之后

8
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有人追了一个问题

9
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问得非常好

10
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他说

11
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波旬为什么偏偏住在欲界六天的最顶层

12
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他不是应该住在最底下吗

13
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最邪恶的东西不是应该在地狱里吗

14
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怎么反而在最高的天上

15
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这个问题的背后藏着一个巨大的误解

16
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我们来拆开它

17
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哈喽

18
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大家好

19
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我是王利杰

20
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你想一想

21
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欲望是不是只有一种形态

22
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你饿了想吃饭

23
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这是欲望

24
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你想升职加薪

25
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这是欲望

26
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你刷短视频停不下来

27
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这是欲望

28
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这些欲望都很明显

29
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你一眼就能认出来

30
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但还有一种欲望

31
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你几乎认不出它

32
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你打坐打到一种非常平静的状态

33
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心里升起一个念头

34
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我想永远留在这里

35
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这是欲望

36
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你帮助了很多人

37
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别人叫你活菩萨

38
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你心里暖暖的

39
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你享受这种被需要的感觉

40
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这是欲望

41
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你修行了十年

42
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终于觉得自己跟以前不一样了

43
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你对自己说

44
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我已经放下了

45
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这个我已经放下了的满足感本身

46
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就是欲望

47
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欲界六天从下往上排列的

48
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不是欲望的强度

49
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是欲望的精微程度

50
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最底层的四天王天

51
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欲望最粗

52
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跟人间差不多

53
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有身体接触

54
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有实在的享乐

55
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越往上

56
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欲望越细

57
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到了第三层夜摩天

58
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拥抱就够了

59
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到了第四层兜率天

60
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牵个手就满足了

61
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到了第五层化乐天

62
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对视一笑

63
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到了第六层他化自在天

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看一眼就够了

65
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甚至不需要自己创造快乐

66
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享用别人创造的就行

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你品一下这个进化方向

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欲望不是越来越强

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是越来越看不见

70
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波旬住在最顶层

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不是因为他最邪恶

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恰恰相反

73
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在欲界的逻辑里

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他是最成功的

75
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他成功地把欲望进化到了终极形态

76
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什么是终极形态

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就是那种不像欲望的欲望

78
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那种让你觉得自己已经超越了欲望的欲望

79
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我举一个你可能有过的体验

80
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如果有人告诉你

81
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你的贪财是欲望

82
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你会点头

83
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如果有人告诉你

84
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你的好色是欲望

85
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你会承认

86
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但如果有人告诉你

87
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你那种我已经看透了一切的从容感

88
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那种我比别人清醒的优越感

89
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本身也是欲望

90
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你的第一反应是什么

91
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你会不舒服

92
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你会在心里说

93
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不是的

94
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这个不一样

95
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就是这个不一样

96
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把波旬推上了欲界最高的宝座

97
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他不是最强的欲望

98
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他是最善于隐藏的欲望

99
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他不住在你认得出来的地方

100
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他住在你以为自己已经超越了的地方

101
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这就是欲界六天的真实设计逻辑

102
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它不是一栋从好到坏的楼

103
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是一台从粗到细的滤网

104
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每上一层

105
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过滤掉一种你能看见的欲望

106
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露出一种你看不见的

107
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到了第六层

108
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剩下的那个

109
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肉眼完全不可见

110
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你得用智慧才能把它照出来

111
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你可以把它想象成一个游戏的难度设计

112
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第一关的敌人是红色的

113
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老远就看见了

114
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一刀就能砍

115
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第二关的敌人会隐身

116
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你得仔细找

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第三关的敌人伪装成你的队友

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到了最终关

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敌人伪装成了你自己的内心独白

120
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你根本不会对自己的想法起疑心

121
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这才是最高难度

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波旬不住在地狱

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因为地狱里的苦你一眼就看见了

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你知道那不是你想待的地方

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波旬住在天堂的最高层

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因为那里的一切都太好了

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好到你完全没有理由想离开

128
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最好的牢笼不是让你痛苦的牢笼

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是让你舒服的牢笼

130
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好

131
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这个问题拆完了

132
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接下来我要说一件更锋利的事

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在你的生活中

134
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有没有人正在替你扮演波旬

135
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我不是说那些明显骗你钱的假大师

136
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那种太粗了

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不配叫波旬

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波旬的段位比那高得多

139
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我说的是那些你真心敬仰的人

140
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那些讲法讲得让你热泪盈眶的高僧

141
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那些一开口就让你觉得他说得太对了的智者

142
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那些你遇到之后觉得自己找到了方向的老师

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你跟着一位师父修行

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他教你很多东西

145
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你进步很大

146
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你非常感恩

147
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这一切都是真的

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我不否认

149
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但有一天

150
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你心里悄悄产生了一个念头

151
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跟着师父就好了

152
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师父会指路的

153
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我不需要自己去找了

154
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这个念头

155
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就是波旬

156
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注意

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我说的不是你的师父是波旬

158
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你的师父可能是真正有证量的修行人

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问题不在师父身上

160
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问题在你心里那个跟着就好了的念头上

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波旬从来不需要亲自出场

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记得吗

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他住在他化自在天

164
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享用别人创造的快乐

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他只需要借用你最信任的那个人的形象

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在你心里安装一个够了的按钮就行了

167
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你想想

168
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佛陀自己是怎么成道的

169
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他先跟了阿罗逻迦蓝

170
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学无所有处定

171
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这是当时印度最顶尖的禅修成就之一

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佛陀很快就达到了跟老师一样的境界

173
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阿罗逻迦蓝非常赏识他

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说你跟我已经一样了

175
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留下来吧

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我们一起带学生

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佛陀走了

178
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然后他跟了郁陀迦罗摩子

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学非想非非想处定

180
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这比无所有处定更高一层

181
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是世间禅定能达到的最高境界

182
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佛陀又很快到达了

183
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郁陀迦罗摩子更直接

184
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要把整个教团的领导位置让给他

185
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佛陀又走了

186
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两位老师都是真正的大师

187
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教的东西都是真的

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佛陀也确实从他们那里学到了真东西

189
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但佛陀没有停下来

190
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他没有说跟着师父就好了

191
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他在心里清清楚楚地看到

192
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这不是终点

193
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如果佛陀在任何一位老师面前停下来

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就没有后面菩提树下的觉悟了

195
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那两位老师不是假的

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他们教的也不是错的

197
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但跟着他们就够了这个念头

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如果在佛陀心里扎了根

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那个念头本身就是波旬

200
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你有没有在某个你信任的人面前

201
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不知不觉地关掉了自己的判断力

202
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有没有因为他说得对而放弃了自己继续追问的冲动

203
00:06:47,745 --> 00:06:49,973
有没有在某个社群、某个圈子

204
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某个学派里待久了之后

205
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开始觉得我们的方法就是对的

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其他的不用看了

207
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每一个让你停止探索的力量

208
00:06:58,985 --> 00:07:00,754
不管它穿着什么外衣

209
00:07:00,824 --> 00:07:01,613
佛袍也好

210
00:07:01,904 --> 00:07:02,944
西装也好

211
00:07:02,944 --> 00:07:04,744
科学家的白大褂也好

212
00:07:04,745 --> 00:07:07,673
它在那一刻就在执行波旬的功能

213
00:07:08,105 --> 00:07:09,793
我说得再准确一点

214
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波旬的功能不是骗你

215
00:07:12,584 --> 00:07:16,713
波旬的功能是让你在某个正确的位置上停下来

216
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那个位置可能确实很好

217
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无所有处定很好

218
00:07:21,785 --> 00:07:23,994
非想非非想处定更好

219
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但好不等于到了

220
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你在那里停住的那一刻

221
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那个位置就从路标变成了牢笼

222
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有人会说

223
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那你是不是在教人不要尊重师父

224
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不要信任任何人

225
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不是

226
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佛陀离开两位老师的时候

227
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他没有否定他们

228
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他只是没有把他们当成终点

229
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你可以感恩一个人

230
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可以从一个人那里学到东西

231
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同时保持一个清醒的觉知

232
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这不是终点

233
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我还要继续走

234
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感恩和依赖是两件事

235
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学习和停止是两件事

236
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禅宗后来把这个道理说得更狠

237
00:08:00,865 --> 00:08:02,334
临济义玄有一句话

238
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逢佛杀佛

239
00:08:04,024 --> 00:08:05,274
逢祖杀祖

240
00:08:05,625 --> 00:08:07,353
这句话吓坏了很多人

241
00:08:07,704 --> 00:08:08,894
你怎么能杀佛呢

242
00:08:09,425 --> 00:08:10,413
但你细想一下

243
00:08:10,824 --> 00:08:12,334
临济说的杀的是什么

244
00:08:12,785 --> 00:08:14,314
杀的不是佛本身

245
00:08:14,504 --> 00:08:17,973
杀的是你心里那个把佛变成偶像、变成依赖

246
00:08:18,225 --> 00:08:21,434
变成你不再需要自己走的理由的那个念头

247
00:08:22,144 --> 00:08:24,394
你心里的佛如果变成了一面墙

248
00:08:24,584 --> 00:08:26,634
挡住了你自己去看的视线

249
00:08:26,665 --> 00:08:28,314
那面墙就是波旬

250
00:08:28,625 --> 00:08:31,314
你嘴里念的经如果变成了一个安慰剂

251
00:08:31,345 --> 00:08:34,344
让你不再追问经文背后到底指向什么

252
00:08:34,345 --> 00:08:36,274
那个安慰剂就是波旬

253
00:08:36,585 --> 00:08:39,953
你加入的修行圈子如果变成了一个舒适的茧房

254
00:08:40,024 --> 00:08:42,994
里面所有人都互相印证、互相肯定

255
00:08:43,065 --> 00:08:44,663
没有人再提出质疑

256
00:08:44,664 --> 00:08:48,114
那个茧房就是波旬在他化自在天的行宫

257
00:08:48,865 --> 00:08:51,254
怎么区分你是在学习还是在依赖

258
00:08:51,745 --> 00:08:53,394
有一个很简单的测试

259
00:08:53,745 --> 00:08:55,533
你试着在心里反对一下

260
00:08:55,585 --> 00:08:57,913
你最尊敬的那个人的某一个观点

261
00:08:58,705 --> 00:09:00,433
如果你发现自己做不到

262
00:09:00,465 --> 00:09:03,313
不是因为他说得对你找不到反驳的理由

263
00:09:03,384 --> 00:09:05,543
而是因为你内心有一种恐惧

264
00:09:05,544 --> 00:09:06,693
一种不敢的感觉

265
00:09:07,024 --> 00:09:08,234
那就要警觉了

266
00:09:08,625 --> 00:09:09,214
那个不敢

267
00:09:09,465 --> 00:09:11,073
就是波旬的绳子

268
00:09:11,424 --> 00:09:14,474
真正的学习让你越来越有力量自己走

269
00:09:14,945 --> 00:09:18,033
依赖让你越来越害怕失去那根拐杖

270
00:09:18,304 --> 00:09:18,494
好

271
00:09:18,904 --> 00:09:19,663
讲到这里

272
00:09:19,664 --> 00:09:21,433
你可能已经有点不舒服了

273
00:09:21,904 --> 00:09:23,594
那我要做最后一个翻转

274
00:09:23,985 --> 00:09:24,974
波旬是坏的吗

275
00:09:25,504 --> 00:09:27,433
回到菩提树下那个夜晚

276
00:09:27,705 --> 00:09:29,394
如果没有波旬来挑战

277
00:09:29,424 --> 00:09:31,094
佛陀的觉悟怎么被验证

278
00:09:31,664 --> 00:09:33,394
波旬派了三个女儿来

279
00:09:33,465 --> 00:09:35,714
代表渴爱、不满和贪欲

280
00:09:35,904 --> 00:09:37,313
佛陀一一认出

281
00:09:37,544 --> 00:09:39,344
波旬派了八支军队来

282
00:09:39,345 --> 00:09:42,313
代表恐惧、懒惰、疑惑、虚伪

283
00:09:42,384 --> 00:09:43,833
佛陀一一看穿

284
00:09:44,024 --> 00:09:45,423
如果没有这些考验

285
00:09:45,424 --> 00:09:47,754
觉悟只是一个安静的内在感觉

286
00:09:47,865 --> 00:09:49,433
没有经过压力测试

287
00:09:49,544 --> 00:09:52,264
你在安静的房间里觉得自己很平静

288
00:09:52,264 --> 00:09:53,433
那不叫定力

289
00:09:53,784 --> 00:09:56,673
你在菜市场里还能保持那份平静

290
00:09:56,825 --> 00:09:58,274
那才叫定力

291
00:09:58,784 --> 00:10:00,673
波旬就是那个菜市场

292
00:10:01,144 --> 00:10:04,793
他制造噪音、制造干扰、制造诱惑

293
00:10:04,985 --> 00:10:08,874
看你的平静是真的还是因为环境好才有的

294
00:10:09,184 --> 00:10:10,014
波旬的出现

295
00:10:10,264 --> 00:10:12,714
恰恰是觉悟的质检环节

296
00:10:13,144 --> 00:10:14,254
你以为你放下了

297
00:10:14,784 --> 00:10:14,974
好

298
00:10:15,225 --> 00:10:16,474
我来试你一下

299
00:10:16,865 --> 00:10:17,974
你以为你不怕了

300
00:10:18,585 --> 00:10:18,774
好

301
00:10:19,065 --> 00:10:21,073
我给你制造一个恐惧看看

302
00:10:21,424 --> 00:10:22,533
你以为你看透了

303
00:10:22,908 --> 00:10:23,585
好

304
00:10:23,585 --> 00:10:26,823
我给你一个看起来完美的理由让你停下来

305
00:10:26,825 --> 00:10:27,953
看你停不停

306
00:10:28,384 --> 00:10:30,114
每一次你识破了波旬

307
00:10:30,225 --> 00:10:32,234
你的觉悟就往深了走一层

308
00:10:32,865 --> 00:10:34,313
每一次你没识破

309
00:10:34,345 --> 00:10:36,153
你就知道自己还有盲区

310
00:10:36,784 --> 00:10:39,994
波旬不会因为你态度诚恳就放你过关

311
00:10:40,465 --> 00:10:42,994
他不会因为你修了二十年就免检

312
00:10:43,424 --> 00:10:45,874
他专门找你最薄弱的地方下手

313
00:10:46,384 --> 00:10:47,614
你的弱点在恐惧

314
00:10:47,945 --> 00:10:49,073
他就来恐惧

315
00:10:49,424 --> 00:10:51,433
你的弱点在贪恋平静

316
00:10:51,465 --> 00:10:53,354
他就给你一个够了的暗示

317
00:10:53,705 --> 00:10:55,714
你的弱点在对权威的依赖

318
00:10:55,825 --> 00:10:58,433
他就让你遇到一个刚好值得信赖的人

319
00:10:58,664 --> 00:11:01,714
波旬是修行路上最狠的质检员

320
00:11:01,985 --> 00:11:04,874
你健身的时候需要阻力才能长肌肉

321
00:11:05,184 --> 00:11:08,073
你修行的时候需要波旬才能长智慧

322
00:11:08,264 --> 00:11:09,663
没有阻力的修行

323
00:11:09,664 --> 00:11:11,313
就像没有重量的哑铃

324
00:11:11,384 --> 00:11:13,754
你举一万次也练不出力量来

325
00:11:14,105 --> 00:11:16,833
巴利经典里有一个值得注意的细节

326
00:11:17,264 --> 00:11:18,374
佛陀成道之后

327
00:11:18,705 --> 00:11:20,193
波旬没有消失

328
00:11:20,585 --> 00:11:23,874
他在佛陀弘法的四十五年里反复出现

329
00:11:24,105 --> 00:11:26,193
他出现在佛陀的弟子面前

330
00:11:26,345 --> 00:11:28,033
出现在比丘尼面前

331
00:11:28,065 --> 00:11:30,673
甚至直接跑到佛陀面前说话

332
00:11:30,985 --> 00:11:31,994
但每一次

333
00:11:32,065 --> 00:11:35,433
佛陀和他的弟子们都用同一个方式回应

334
00:11:35,985 --> 00:11:36,693
不是反击

335
00:11:37,144 --> 00:11:38,153
不是驱赶

336
00:11:38,585 --> 00:11:39,673
而是一句话

337
00:11:40,225 --> 00:11:40,614
波旬

338
00:11:40,985 --> 00:11:42,114
我认出你了

339
00:11:42,304 --> 00:11:42,894
认出了

340
00:11:43,105 --> 00:11:44,394
不是消灭了

341
00:11:45,065 --> 00:11:45,894
这意味着什么

342
00:11:46,745 --> 00:11:50,394
这意味着觉悟不是一种没有波旬的状态

343
00:11:50,825 --> 00:11:54,234
觉悟是一种随时能认出波旬的能力

344
00:11:54,945 --> 00:11:56,033
欲望还在

345
00:11:56,465 --> 00:11:57,634
恐惧还在

346
00:11:58,225 --> 00:12:00,193
那个说够了的声音还在

347
00:12:00,784 --> 00:12:02,994
但你心里多了一面镜子

348
00:12:03,544 --> 00:12:05,394
这面镜子就是觉察

349
00:12:05,985 --> 00:12:06,933
波旬来的时候

350
00:12:07,225 --> 00:12:08,274
你照一下

351
00:12:08,384 --> 00:12:09,094
认出他了

352
00:12:09,465 --> 00:12:11,433
他就失去了对你的控制力

353
00:12:11,904 --> 00:12:12,494
他还在

354
00:12:13,105 --> 00:12:14,754
但他拿你没办法了

355
00:12:14,945 --> 00:12:16,413
一个没有波旬的世界

356
00:12:16,664 --> 00:12:17,833
不需要佛陀

357
00:12:18,184 --> 00:12:19,254
正因为有波旬

358
00:12:19,585 --> 00:12:21,193
觉悟才有意义

359
00:12:21,384 --> 00:12:23,073
正因为有人拦你的路

360
00:12:23,144 --> 00:12:24,994
走出去才叫解脱

361
00:12:25,345 --> 00:12:27,913
这个逻辑跟你的免疫系统是一样的

362
00:12:28,024 --> 00:12:29,573
你的免疫系统为什么强大

363
00:12:30,024 --> 00:12:32,274
不是因为你从来没接触过病毒

364
00:12:32,465 --> 00:12:33,514
恰恰相反

365
00:12:33,544 --> 00:12:36,754
是因为你从小到大接触了无数次病菌

366
00:12:36,865 --> 00:12:41,033
你的身体一次次地识别它、对抗它、记住它

367
00:12:41,384 --> 00:12:43,634
一个在无菌室里长大的孩子

368
00:12:43,664 --> 00:12:45,754
免疫系统反而最脆弱

369
00:12:46,184 --> 00:12:47,553
觉悟也一样

370
00:12:47,705 --> 00:12:50,384
一个从来没被波旬考过的修行人

371
00:12:50,384 --> 00:12:53,114
他的觉悟经不起一点风吹草动

372
00:12:53,904 --> 00:12:55,474
真正坚固的觉悟

373
00:12:55,504 --> 00:12:59,033
一定是在波旬的反复测试中锻造出来的

374
00:12:59,304 --> 00:13:00,793
你想想你自己的经历

375
00:13:01,065 --> 00:13:02,293
让你成长最大的

376
00:13:02,544 --> 00:13:03,933
是顺境还是逆境

377
00:13:04,504 --> 00:13:06,234
让你真正认清自己的

378
00:13:06,264 --> 00:13:08,933
是别人的赞美还是那些猝不及防的打击

379
00:13:09,585 --> 00:13:11,754
让你意识到自己还有盲区的

380
00:13:11,784 --> 00:13:12,933
是打坐时的安宁

381
00:13:13,105 --> 00:13:16,134
还是生活里那些突然把你打回原形的瞬间

382
00:13:16,945 --> 00:13:17,614
那些瞬间

383
00:13:17,985 --> 00:13:19,514
就是波旬在工作

384
00:13:20,024 --> 00:13:21,114
他没有恶意

385
00:13:21,465 --> 00:13:23,073
他只是在做他的质检

386
00:13:23,585 --> 00:13:24,634
而他的质检

387
00:13:24,705 --> 00:13:27,354
恰恰是你能不能过关的唯一标准

388
00:13:27,625 --> 00:13:29,214
所以三部曲到这里

389
00:13:29,465 --> 00:13:30,634
画面完整了

390
00:13:30,825 --> 00:13:31,813
帝释天告诉你

391
00:13:32,225 --> 00:13:33,793
善业有天花板

392
00:13:34,184 --> 00:13:35,274
这是第一课

393
00:13:35,825 --> 00:13:38,673
大多数人一辈子都卡在这一课

394
00:13:39,225 --> 00:13:41,673
他们以为做好人就是终点

395
00:13:42,184 --> 00:13:43,433
波旬告诉你

396
00:13:43,544 --> 00:13:46,433
有一种力量在阻止你看到天花板

397
00:13:46,865 --> 00:13:48,033
这是第二课

398
00:13:48,585 --> 00:13:50,714
更少的人能走到这一步

399
00:13:51,105 --> 00:13:55,073
因为识别波旬需要你承认一个不舒服的事实

400
00:13:55,424 --> 00:13:57,193
你一直以为的安全感

401
00:13:57,264 --> 00:13:58,913
可能恰恰是牢笼

402
00:13:59,225 --> 00:14:00,953
而今天这第三课

403
00:14:00,985 --> 00:14:03,754
也是三部曲里最难消化的一课

404
00:14:04,065 --> 00:14:05,953
那个不让你看的力量

405
00:14:06,065 --> 00:14:09,153
恰恰是帮你练出看的能力的人

406
00:14:09,544 --> 00:14:11,793
你的对手就是你的老师

407
00:14:12,225 --> 00:14:14,514
你的障碍就是你的教材

408
00:14:14,945 --> 00:14:17,104
你心里那个说够了的声音

409
00:14:17,105 --> 00:14:18,384
不是来毁你的

410
00:14:18,384 --> 00:14:19,673
是来考你的

411
00:14:19,865 --> 00:14:22,193
你的生命中一定有这样的时刻

412
00:14:22,585 --> 00:14:24,464
你以为自己已经想通了

413
00:14:24,465 --> 00:14:25,953
结果一件事发生

414
00:14:26,144 --> 00:14:28,474
所有的通透瞬间碎掉

415
00:14:28,904 --> 00:14:31,193
那个碎掉的瞬间你很痛苦

416
00:14:31,345 --> 00:14:32,453
但事后回头看

417
00:14:32,784 --> 00:14:33,754
你会发现

418
00:14:33,784 --> 00:14:35,193
正是那次碎掉

419
00:14:35,264 --> 00:14:39,234
让你看见了之前自以为想通的那层壳底下

420
00:14:39,264 --> 00:14:40,474
还藏着什么

421
00:14:41,065 --> 00:14:42,293
没有碎过的通透

422
00:14:42,625 --> 00:14:43,634
不叫通透

423
00:14:44,024 --> 00:14:45,433
叫自我催眠

424
00:14:45,865 --> 00:14:46,774
没有天花板

425
00:14:47,065 --> 00:14:48,594
你不知道要往哪走

426
00:14:48,865 --> 00:14:49,774
没有守门人

427
00:14:50,065 --> 00:14:51,553
你不知道门在哪

428
00:14:51,904 --> 00:14:52,693
没有波旬

429
00:14:53,065 --> 00:14:54,714
佛陀成不了佛

430
00:14:55,105 --> 00:14:57,394
最后我想把一个问题留给你

431
00:14:57,705 --> 00:15:00,874
下一次你心里升起那个够了的声音的时候

432
00:15:01,144 --> 00:15:02,673
不要急着听它的话

433
00:15:02,865 --> 00:15:04,634
也不要急着跟它对抗

434
00:15:04,985 --> 00:15:06,474
试试佛陀的方法

435
00:15:06,784 --> 00:15:07,374
安静地

436
00:15:07,664 --> 00:15:08,453
对它说一句

437
00:15:09,024 --> 00:15:10,313
我认出你了

438
00:15:10,784 --> 00:15:13,594
然后看看你心里发生了什么变化

439
00:15:13,985 --> 00:15:15,433
那个变化本身

440
00:15:15,544 --> 00:15:18,073
就是修行正在发生的证据

441
00:15:18,424 --> 00:15:19,134
我是王利杰

442
00:15:19,465 --> 00:15:20,407
我们下期见