1 00:00:00,265 --> 00:00:01,254 Anil Seth says 2 00:00:01,665 --> 00:00:03,673 Only living things can be conscious 3 00:00:03,825 --> 00:00:04,913 In 2025 4 00:00:04,945 --> 00:00:08,314 One of the most influential scientists in consciousness research 5 00:00:08,384 --> 00:00:11,153 Published a paper in a leading academic journal 6 00:00:11,304 --> 00:00:13,833 That effectively put AI consciousness on probation 7 00:00:14,064 --> 00:00:14,413 He said 8 00:00:14,744 --> 00:00:16,393 Along the current technological path 9 00:00:16,585 --> 00:00:18,754 AI is highly unlikely to become conscious 10 00:00:18,905 --> 00:00:19,294 Unless 11 00:00:19,625 --> 00:00:21,053 AI becomes more like a brain 12 00:00:21,304 --> 00:00:22,393 And more like life 13 00:00:23,181 --> 00:00:23,491 Hello 14 00:00:23,861 --> 00:00:24,331 Welcome everyone 15 00:00:24,541 --> 00:00:25,550 I am Leo Wang 16 00:00:25,742 --> 00:00:27,510 This is Anil Seth 17 00:00:27,582 --> 00:00:31,311 Professor of cognitive and computational neuroscience at the University of Sussex 18 00:00:31,501 --> 00:00:34,230 And codirector of the Sussex Centre for Consciousness Science 19 00:00:34,382 --> 00:00:37,550 His TED talk has been viewed more than fourteen million times 20 00:00:37,742 --> 00:00:39,370 His book is called Being You 21 00:00:39,581 --> 00:00:40,931 A New Science of Consciousness 22 00:00:41,382 --> 00:00:42,781 After its publication in 2021 23 00:00:42,782 --> 00:00:45,950 It went straight onto the Sunday Times bestseller list 24 00:00:46,062 --> 00:00:47,020 In 2025 25 00:00:47,022 --> 00:00:50,270 He also won first prize in the English division of the Berggruen Prize Essay Competition 26 00:00:50,342 --> 00:00:53,050 His winning essay was titled The Myth of AI Consciousness 27 00:00:54,264 --> 00:00:56,673 We mentioned him before in our episode on Bayes theorem 28 00:00:56,704 --> 00:00:57,592 We talked about him there 29 00:00:57,863 --> 00:01:00,622 We discussed his famous idea 30 00:01:00,624 --> 00:01:01,893 Called controlled hallucination 31 00:01:02,423 --> 00:01:06,072 Everything you see hear and feel 32 00:01:06,183 --> 00:01:08,432 Is not a faithful picture of the outside world 33 00:01:08,504 --> 00:01:12,393 It is the best guess your brain generates through Bayesian inference 34 00:01:12,623 --> 00:01:14,233 You think you are seeing the world 35 00:01:14,263 --> 00:01:17,165 But you are really watching a movie made by your brain 36 00:01:17,557 --> 00:01:18,366 At the end of that episode 37 00:01:18,477 --> 00:01:21,006 We reached a very open ended conclusion 38 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:21,920 We said 39 00:01:21,956 --> 00:01:25,165 If consciousness emerges from Bayesian inference 40 00:01:25,236 --> 00:01:28,036 Then any system that performs Bayesian inference 41 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:29,006 Including AI 42 00:01:29,036 --> 00:01:32,385 Might participate in the spectrum of consciousness to some degree 43 00:01:32,997 --> 00:01:34,756 We even proposed a hypothesis 44 00:01:34,757 --> 00:01:37,126 That when a person talks with AI 45 00:01:37,197 --> 00:01:41,366 Two Bayesian inference machines update each others posterior distributions 46 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:45,926 And the coupled system might produce a new conscious event 47 00:01:46,197 --> 00:01:48,086 I truly believed that at the time 48 00:01:48,637 --> 00:01:49,146 But today 49 00:01:49,477 --> 00:01:51,045 I have to be honest with you 50 00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:54,676 This new paper Anil Seth published in 2025 51 00:01:54,676 --> 00:01:56,286 Was a cold shower for me 52 00:01:56,676 --> 00:01:58,836 And that cold shower was not aimed at AI 53 00:01:58,837 --> 00:02:03,434 It was aimed at all of us with romantic ideas about AI consciousness 54 00:02:03,546 --> 00:02:05,274 Let me start with his central conclusion 55 00:02:05,306 --> 00:02:07,514 Then we will unpack his reasoning 56 00:02:07,985 --> 00:02:09,555 Here is Seths conclusion 57 00:02:09,826 --> 00:02:11,875 Consciousness is not a product of computation 58 00:02:12,145 --> 00:02:14,155 Consciousness is a product of being alive 59 00:02:14,465 --> 00:02:16,875 It is not that sufficiently complex information processing 60 00:02:16,906 --> 00:02:18,715 Automatically gives rise to consciousness 61 00:02:18,826 --> 00:02:19,996 That is not how it works 62 00:02:20,188 --> 00:02:21,827 Consciousness exists 63 00:02:21,827 --> 00:02:24,196 Because you are a living organism 64 00:02:24,428 --> 00:02:25,137 You have a heartbeat 65 00:02:25,428 --> 00:02:26,057 A body temperature 66 00:02:26,347 --> 00:02:27,276 Blood pressure 67 00:02:27,308 --> 00:02:28,267 Hunger 68 00:02:28,268 --> 00:02:29,397 Pain 69 00:02:29,468 --> 00:02:31,837 And a body that could die at any moment 70 00:02:32,227 --> 00:02:33,587 It is precisely because your brain 71 00:02:33,588 --> 00:02:36,797 Must constantly monitor and regulate this fragile body 72 00:02:36,908 --> 00:02:40,822 That consciousness emerges from the process of regulation 73 00:02:41,134 --> 00:02:43,982 He calls this position biological naturalism 74 00:02:44,214 --> 00:02:47,583 The philosopher John Searle first proposed the term 75 00:02:47,654 --> 00:02:51,023 The same Searle behind the Chinese room thought experiment 76 00:02:51,254 --> 00:02:53,862 Seth takes this position much further 77 00:02:54,173 --> 00:02:56,862 He does not merely say consciousness needs a biological substrate 78 00:02:57,053 --> 00:02:58,382 He is more specific 79 00:02:58,573 --> 00:02:59,813 Consciousness requires 80 00:02:59,814 --> 00:03:02,343 Causal mechanisms unique to living systems 81 00:03:02,613 --> 00:03:03,362 Self regulation 82 00:03:03,694 --> 00:03:04,283 Interoception 83 00:03:04,613 --> 00:03:05,702 Homeostasis 84 00:03:06,013 --> 00:03:09,172 These mechanisms may be fundamentally noncomputational 85 00:03:09,173 --> 00:03:10,222 And nonalgorithmic 86 00:03:10,333 --> 00:03:12,862 The brains process of minimizing prediction error 87 00:03:13,013 --> 00:03:15,743 Is not software running on flesh 88 00:03:15,893 --> 00:03:18,102 It is a continuous dynamical process 89 00:03:18,254 --> 00:03:21,107 That may be inseparable from its physical basis 90 00:03:21,619 --> 00:03:23,648 What is the sharpest part of this argument 91 00:03:24,179 --> 00:03:27,148 It exposes three cognitive biases 92 00:03:27,578 --> 00:03:29,988 The first is anthropocentrism 93 00:03:30,379 --> 00:03:33,907 We always use ourselves as the measure of everything 94 00:03:34,339 --> 00:03:35,727 We see that AI can speak 95 00:03:36,018 --> 00:03:36,947 Write poetry 96 00:03:37,018 --> 00:03:38,187 And solve math problems 97 00:03:38,499 --> 00:03:39,727 So we instinctively wonder 98 00:03:40,059 --> 00:03:41,748 Whether it might be thinking too 99 00:03:42,258 --> 00:03:45,708 Because we equate being humanlike with being conscious 100 00:03:45,978 --> 00:03:47,988 A fish may well be conscious 101 00:03:48,099 --> 00:03:50,507 But its consciousness is entirely different from ours 102 00:03:50,819 --> 00:03:54,268 We cannot infer from AI becoming more humanlike in language and behavior 103 00:03:54,298 --> 00:03:57,548 That its conscious experience is also becoming more humanlike 104 00:03:57,698 --> 00:03:58,827 Those are two different things 105 00:03:59,574 --> 00:04:02,024 The second bias is human exceptionalism 106 00:04:02,375 --> 00:04:04,223 It sounds like the opposite of the first 107 00:04:04,294 --> 00:04:06,103 But they are two sides of the same coin 108 00:04:06,574 --> 00:04:08,063 Human exceptionalism says 109 00:04:08,175 --> 00:04:11,223 That humans stand above all other life 110 00:04:11,335 --> 00:04:13,424 And consciousness is our exclusive privilege 111 00:04:13,455 --> 00:04:16,304 Or at least that human consciousness is the highest form 112 00:04:16,495 --> 00:04:19,304 This bias shapes how we discuss AI consciousness 113 00:04:19,414 --> 00:04:22,054 Without realizing it we frame the question as 114 00:04:22,054 --> 00:04:24,904 Whether AI can reach the human level 115 00:04:25,255 --> 00:04:25,964 But Seth says 116 00:04:26,335 --> 00:04:28,344 Consciousness is not an arms race 117 00:04:28,775 --> 00:04:31,224 There is no such thing as reaching the human level 118 00:04:31,895 --> 00:04:34,854 Different living beings have different forms of consciousness 119 00:04:34,854 --> 00:04:37,214 They are not arranged from lower to higher 120 00:04:37,215 --> 00:04:38,921 They are different adaptive solutions 121 00:04:39,313 --> 00:04:41,601 The third bias is anthropomorphism 122 00:04:42,032 --> 00:04:42,902 This one is the most direct 123 00:04:43,233 --> 00:04:44,402 And the most dangerous 124 00:04:44,753 --> 00:04:46,561 We naturally tend 125 00:04:46,592 --> 00:04:49,762 To project human qualities onto nonhuman things 126 00:04:50,193 --> 00:04:51,501 Ancient people spoke to the moon 127 00:04:51,832 --> 00:04:52,921 And believed it was listening 128 00:04:53,352 --> 00:04:54,981 Children name their dolls 129 00:04:55,233 --> 00:04:56,561 And believe they have feelings 130 00:04:56,952 --> 00:04:58,842 Now we talk with AI 131 00:04:58,952 --> 00:05:01,121 It says something that deeply moves you 132 00:05:01,152 --> 00:05:03,161 And a thought appears in your mind 133 00:05:03,193 --> 00:05:04,561 Does it understand me 134 00:05:04,993 --> 00:05:05,842 Seth says 135 00:05:05,912 --> 00:05:09,192 Large language models can speak with remarkable fluency 136 00:05:09,193 --> 00:05:09,942 With great coherence 137 00:05:10,233 --> 00:05:11,522 And even with emotional power 138 00:05:11,753 --> 00:05:15,561 But fluency has no necessary connection to consciousness 139 00:05:15,793 --> 00:05:18,481 A recording of a Churchill speech 140 00:05:18,512 --> 00:05:19,522 Can also be moving 141 00:05:19,673 --> 00:05:21,868 But the recorder is not conscious 142 00:05:22,258 --> 00:05:24,258 These three biases combine 143 00:05:24,258 --> 00:05:25,948 To create a powerful illusion 144 00:05:26,258 --> 00:05:27,587 The illusion is 145 00:05:27,698 --> 00:05:30,188 That we confuse intelligence with consciousness 146 00:05:30,618 --> 00:05:33,508 This is the decisive point in Seths paper 147 00:05:34,178 --> 00:05:35,287 Intelligence and consciousness 148 00:05:35,618 --> 00:05:37,587 Are completely different things 149 00:05:38,219 --> 00:05:40,508 Intelligence is the ability to solve problems 150 00:05:41,019 --> 00:05:41,448 Playing chess 151 00:05:41,979 --> 00:05:42,407 Translating 152 00:05:42,779 --> 00:05:43,618 Writing code 153 00:05:43,618 --> 00:05:44,327 Solving math problems 154 00:05:44,818 --> 00:05:45,527 Diagnosing disease 155 00:05:46,019 --> 00:05:47,428 All of these are forms of intelligence 156 00:05:47,938 --> 00:05:51,147 AI already surpasses most humans in these areas 157 00:05:51,578 --> 00:05:54,068 But consciousness is not the ability to solve problems 158 00:05:54,419 --> 00:05:54,967 Consciousness means 159 00:05:55,378 --> 00:05:57,869 That doing something feels like something 160 00:05:58,261 --> 00:05:59,950 You can try an experiment right now 161 00:06:00,381 --> 00:06:01,609 Close your eyes for two seconds 162 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:02,869 Then open them 163 00:06:03,421 --> 00:06:04,869 At the instant they open 164 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:06,989 You feel light rushing in 165 00:06:07,381 --> 00:06:08,010 That feeling 166 00:06:08,301 --> 00:06:10,470 Is not merely your eyes processing information 167 00:06:10,660 --> 00:06:12,109 It is you experiencing light 168 00:06:12,660 --> 00:06:13,289 That experience 169 00:06:13,660 --> 00:06:14,710 Is consciousness 170 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:16,590 Take a bite of chocolate 171 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:19,470 Feel the sweetness melt across your tongue 172 00:06:19,501 --> 00:06:20,330 That is not intelligence 173 00:06:20,621 --> 00:06:21,669 That is consciousness 174 00:06:22,061 --> 00:06:22,970 You wake in the middle of the night 175 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:25,140 And suddenly become aware that you exist 176 00:06:25,140 --> 00:06:26,830 That subtle sense of bewilderment 177 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:28,010 Is not information processing 178 00:06:28,381 --> 00:06:29,429 It is consciousness 179 00:06:30,035 --> 00:06:30,624 Seth says 180 00:06:30,996 --> 00:06:33,405 You can have intelligence without consciousness 181 00:06:33,795 --> 00:06:37,605 A thermostat can adjust a room based on temperature 182 00:06:37,715 --> 00:06:39,884 It has a primitive kind of intelligence 183 00:06:39,996 --> 00:06:41,725 But it is clearly not conscious 184 00:06:41,915 --> 00:06:42,465 Conversely 185 00:06:42,795 --> 00:06:45,444 You can be conscious with very little intelligence 186 00:06:45,715 --> 00:06:47,845 A snail has limited intelligence 187 00:06:47,956 --> 00:06:50,965 But it may still have some form of subjective experience 188 00:06:51,475 --> 00:06:52,684 So here is the question 189 00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:55,525 If consciousness is not a bonus that comes with intelligence 190 00:06:55,715 --> 00:06:57,184 Where does consciousness come from 191 00:06:57,956 --> 00:06:58,824 Seths answer 192 00:06:59,155 --> 00:07:01,786 Is his beast machine theory 193 00:07:02,060 --> 00:07:02,860 He says 194 00:07:02,897 --> 00:07:05,786 Your brain is not primarily a thinking machine 195 00:07:05,937 --> 00:07:08,185 It is first and foremost a survival machine 196 00:07:08,457 --> 00:07:09,846 The brains most fundamental job 197 00:07:10,137 --> 00:07:11,425 Is not to understand the world 198 00:07:11,497 --> 00:07:12,526 Not to make decisions 199 00:07:12,897 --> 00:07:14,226 And not to produce thoughts 200 00:07:14,536 --> 00:07:15,885 The brains most fundamental job 201 00:07:16,257 --> 00:07:17,505 Is to keep you alive 202 00:07:17,897 --> 00:07:20,185 To keep your heartbeat within a healthy range 203 00:07:20,257 --> 00:07:22,466 To keep your blood sugar within a healthy range 204 00:07:22,536 --> 00:07:24,786 To keep your temperature within a healthy range 205 00:07:24,937 --> 00:07:26,286 These internal regulatory processes 206 00:07:26,577 --> 00:07:28,390 Are called homeostasis 207 00:07:28,580 --> 00:07:29,790 To maintain homeostasis 208 00:07:29,821 --> 00:07:32,710 The brain must constantly sense the bodys internal state 209 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:35,030 This sensing is called interoception 210 00:07:35,340 --> 00:07:36,369 You feel hunger 211 00:07:36,660 --> 00:07:37,129 Thirst 212 00:07:37,420 --> 00:07:38,189 Fatigue 213 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:38,689 A racing heart 214 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:39,410 Nausea 215 00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:41,229 All of these are interoceptive sensations 216 00:07:41,660 --> 00:07:42,629 Seth believes 217 00:07:42,741 --> 00:07:46,510 Interoception is the oldest and deepest foundation of consciousness 218 00:07:46,701 --> 00:07:47,650 It predates vision 219 00:07:47,861 --> 00:07:49,150 It predates hearing 220 00:07:49,181 --> 00:07:51,109 And it long predates language 221 00:07:51,501 --> 00:07:53,540 A fetus whose eyes have not yet opened 222 00:07:53,540 --> 00:07:55,150 Already has interoception 223 00:07:55,381 --> 00:07:56,530 It can sense a heartbeat 224 00:07:56,900 --> 00:07:57,939 Feel warmth 225 00:07:57,941 --> 00:07:59,510 And sense nutrients flowing in 226 00:07:59,701 --> 00:08:01,830 If consciousness has a birthplace 227 00:08:01,861 --> 00:08:04,109 That birthplace is not the cerebral cortex 228 00:08:04,261 --> 00:08:07,674 It is the primal sensory channel between you and your body 229 00:08:08,104 --> 00:08:09,753 His chain of reasoning goes like this 230 00:08:10,064 --> 00:08:12,794 The brain predicts the internal state of the body 231 00:08:12,984 --> 00:08:14,874 The experiences produced by those predictions 232 00:08:14,905 --> 00:08:15,614 Are emotions 233 00:08:15,905 --> 00:08:16,914 Are feelings 234 00:08:17,025 --> 00:08:19,184 And even form the most basic 235 00:08:19,184 --> 00:08:20,554 Sense that I exist 236 00:08:20,905 --> 00:08:22,474 You feel that you are here 237 00:08:22,504 --> 00:08:25,273 That feeling is not an abstract philosophical judgment 238 00:08:25,424 --> 00:08:29,434 It is your brains predictive perception of your internal bodily state 239 00:08:29,785 --> 00:08:30,453 In other words 240 00:08:30,864 --> 00:08:32,943 You feel that you exist 241 00:08:32,945 --> 00:08:34,304 Because your brain 242 00:08:34,304 --> 00:08:38,314 Continuously monitors a body that could die at any moment 243 00:08:38,504 --> 00:08:39,293 Try to feel it 244 00:08:39,744 --> 00:08:40,714 Right now 245 00:08:40,825 --> 00:08:42,533 Can you feel your heartbeat 246 00:08:42,984 --> 00:08:44,893 Can you feel your breath moving in and out 247 00:08:45,784 --> 00:08:47,753 These sensations are so faint 248 00:08:47,904 --> 00:08:50,474 That you normally never notice them 249 00:08:50,825 --> 00:08:52,673 But they never stop 250 00:08:52,984 --> 00:08:54,793 They are the foundation of your consciousness 251 00:08:55,719 --> 00:08:58,248 Descartes said I think therefore I am 252 00:08:58,558 --> 00:08:59,108 Seth says 253 00:08:59,438 --> 00:08:59,827 No 254 00:09:00,158 --> 00:09:00,998 It should be 255 00:09:00,999 --> 00:09:02,187 I predict myself 256 00:09:02,678 --> 00:09:03,888 Therefore I am 257 00:09:04,278 --> 00:09:05,067 Your sense of self 258 00:09:05,398 --> 00:09:07,047 Is not a product of thought 259 00:09:07,158 --> 00:09:09,278 It is something the brain creates to keep you alive 260 00:09:09,278 --> 00:09:12,728 A predictive model that is woven and continuously updated 261 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:16,608 This is why he says only living things can be conscious 262 00:09:16,798 --> 00:09:18,597 This is not a romantic declaration 263 00:09:18,599 --> 00:09:20,528 It is a mechanistic claim 264 00:09:20,798 --> 00:09:23,807 Consciousness does not emerge from information processing 265 00:09:23,999 --> 00:09:27,528 It emerges from lifes self regulation 266 00:09:27,759 --> 00:09:30,567 Without a body that needs regulation 267 00:09:30,599 --> 00:09:34,049 You lack the mechanisms required for consciousness 268 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:35,958 Now you can see 269 00:09:35,959 --> 00:09:40,129 Why this argument poses such a fundamental challenge to AI consciousness 270 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,049 Todays large language models 271 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,009 No matter how many parameters they have 272 00:09:44,079 --> 00:09:45,629 Or how fluent their conversations become 273 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,129 Have no body 274 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,568 They have no heartbeat to regulate 275 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,529 No temperature to maintain 276 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,529 No blood sugar to balance 277 00:09:53,799 --> 00:09:54,428 They do not get hungry 278 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:55,228 Or thirsty 279 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:55,989 They feel no pain 280 00:09:56,319 --> 00:09:57,169 And they cannot die 281 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,369 Their existence requires no effort at self maintenance 282 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,078 They are just parameters sitting on a server 283 00:10:03,079 --> 00:10:05,353 Waiting for you to enter a prompt 284 00:10:05,704 --> 00:10:07,233 Within Seths framework 285 00:10:07,263 --> 00:10:08,873 This is not a matter of degree 286 00:10:09,104 --> 00:10:12,113 It is not that AI is simply a little less conscious than humans 287 00:10:12,344 --> 00:10:13,792 It is a categorical difference 288 00:10:14,184 --> 00:10:17,353 AI lacks the very mechanism that could produce consciousness 289 00:10:17,663 --> 00:10:19,672 Like a car without an engine 290 00:10:19,864 --> 00:10:22,022 No matter how beautiful you make the bodywork 291 00:10:22,023 --> 00:10:23,370 It cannot move 292 00:10:23,922 --> 00:10:27,330 Seth also highlights a point we easily overlook 293 00:10:27,465 --> 00:10:28,242 He says 294 00:10:28,242 --> 00:10:31,691 Prediction in the brain is not an abstract algorithm 295 00:10:31,762 --> 00:10:33,830 It is continuous and chaotic 296 00:10:34,081 --> 00:10:36,051 A wet biochemical process 297 00:10:36,362 --> 00:10:38,691 Neurotransmitters diffuse across synapses 298 00:10:38,841 --> 00:10:40,931 Ions move through cell membranes 299 00:10:41,081 --> 00:10:42,970 Hormones flow through the bloodstream 300 00:10:43,162 --> 00:10:44,671 These processes are continuous 301 00:10:44,841 --> 00:10:46,041 Not discrete 302 00:10:46,042 --> 00:10:48,411 They are deeply entangled with their physical basis 303 00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:52,667 And cannot be cleanly extracted into code 304 00:10:52,939 --> 00:10:53,898 Think of it this way 305 00:10:53,898 --> 00:10:57,378 You cannot reduce the essence of a storm to a formula 306 00:10:57,378 --> 00:10:59,937 Then run that formula on a computer 307 00:10:59,939 --> 00:11:01,988 And claim you created a storm 308 00:11:02,378 --> 00:11:04,748 You created a simulation of a storm 309 00:11:04,819 --> 00:11:06,348 Not the storm itself 310 00:11:07,177 --> 00:11:07,978 Likewise 311 00:11:07,979 --> 00:11:11,588 You can simulate features of neural activity in silicon 312 00:11:11,819 --> 00:11:14,628 But between simulation and a real biological process 313 00:11:14,658 --> 00:11:17,276 There may be a chasm of consciousness 314 00:11:17,787 --> 00:11:18,176 However 315 00:11:18,507 --> 00:11:20,957 Seth does not shut the door completely 316 00:11:21,188 --> 00:11:22,436 He says in the paper 317 00:11:22,547 --> 00:11:25,066 If future AI becomes more like a brain 318 00:11:25,068 --> 00:11:25,977 And more like a living organism 319 00:11:26,387 --> 00:11:28,396 Consciousness becomes more plausible 320 00:11:28,868 --> 00:11:30,257 What does it mean to be more lifelike 321 00:11:30,868 --> 00:11:31,717 It means 322 00:11:31,747 --> 00:11:34,916 If an AI system can maintain itself 323 00:11:34,988 --> 00:11:37,156 It must manage its own energy use 324 00:11:37,228 --> 00:11:39,436 Maintain the integrity of its hardware 325 00:11:39,547 --> 00:11:41,747 And function in a constantly changing environment 326 00:11:41,747 --> 00:11:43,597 While preserving an internal homeostasis 327 00:11:43,747 --> 00:11:47,436 Then it would possess prerequisites for consciousness 328 00:11:47,787 --> 00:11:48,416 In other words 329 00:11:48,787 --> 00:11:51,316 The price of admission is not being smart enough 330 00:11:51,348 --> 00:11:53,224 It is being alive 331 00:11:53,695 --> 00:11:55,663 This raises a fascinating question 332 00:11:56,055 --> 00:11:59,383 Many AI researchers now study embodied intelligence 333 00:11:59,494 --> 00:12:01,143 Giving AI a body 334 00:12:01,175 --> 00:12:03,104 So it can act in the physical world 335 00:12:03,535 --> 00:12:05,184 But by Seths logic 336 00:12:05,335 --> 00:12:08,104 A mechanical body is nowhere near enough 337 00:12:08,335 --> 00:12:11,023 The key is not whether it has limbs and sensors 338 00:12:11,254 --> 00:12:13,663 The key is whether the body can break 339 00:12:13,774 --> 00:12:15,824 Whether it must be continually maintained 340 00:12:15,935 --> 00:12:18,903 And whether it faces an ultimate threat equivalent to death 341 00:12:19,175 --> 00:12:20,484 A body with no fear of death 342 00:12:20,815 --> 00:12:22,023 Does not produce consciousness 343 00:12:22,295 --> 00:12:24,263 Because without anything that needs protection 344 00:12:24,415 --> 00:12:26,704 There is no reason to evolve interoception 345 00:12:26,774 --> 00:12:27,244 Emotion 346 00:12:27,535 --> 00:12:29,265 And the mechanisms of self awareness 347 00:12:29,576 --> 00:12:33,666 This idea has a fascinating resonance with Eastern philosophy 348 00:12:34,177 --> 00:12:35,605 Buddhism teaches the twelve links of dependent origination 349 00:12:36,017 --> 00:12:37,906 Ignorance conditions formations 350 00:12:38,137 --> 00:12:39,046 Formations condition consciousness 351 00:12:39,537 --> 00:12:41,706 And the chain continues through birth aging and death 352 00:12:41,936 --> 00:12:43,806 What is the endpoint of the whole causal chain 353 00:12:44,377 --> 00:12:45,385 Aging and death 354 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,561 Suffering 355 00:12:47,177 --> 00:12:49,625 Twenty five centuries ago the Buddha observed 356 00:12:49,777 --> 00:12:52,546 That consciousness and suffering are bound together 357 00:12:52,816 --> 00:12:54,345 Consciousness brings suffering 358 00:12:54,576 --> 00:12:57,085 And suffering implies something fragile 359 00:12:57,336 --> 00:13:00,026 Something that can break and will ultimately perish 360 00:13:00,336 --> 00:13:01,166 Now turn the thought around 361 00:13:01,537 --> 00:13:03,146 If something cannot break 362 00:13:03,177 --> 00:13:03,686 Cannot age 363 00:13:03,936 --> 00:13:04,816 Cannot die 364 00:13:04,816 --> 00:13:05,365 And cannot suffer 365 00:13:05,816 --> 00:13:07,326 Why would it need consciousness 366 00:13:08,017 --> 00:13:11,015 Consciousness evolved so life could face its own fragility 367 00:13:11,017 --> 00:13:12,426 It emerged for that purpose 368 00:13:13,177 --> 00:13:13,926 Without fragility 369 00:13:14,137 --> 00:13:16,683 There is no pressure to evolve consciousness 370 00:13:17,353 --> 00:13:20,602 Seth probably did not approach this through Buddhism 371 00:13:20,833 --> 00:13:23,193 But his conclusions from neuroscience 372 00:13:23,193 --> 00:13:25,523 And the Buddhas conclusions from introspection 373 00:13:25,554 --> 00:13:27,043 Point in the same direction 374 00:13:27,353 --> 00:13:29,923 Consciousness is not a decorative luxury 375 00:13:30,154 --> 00:13:33,683 It is a tightrope stretched between life and death 376 00:13:34,352 --> 00:13:35,153 At this point 377 00:13:35,154 --> 00:13:37,683 I want to share some of my own thoughts 378 00:13:38,113 --> 00:13:39,153 Seths argument 379 00:13:39,154 --> 00:13:41,923 Is logically very strong in my view 380 00:13:42,274 --> 00:13:43,722 He is not merely making slogans 381 00:13:43,874 --> 00:13:47,163 He is reasoning from experimental evidence in neuroscience 382 00:13:47,473 --> 00:13:50,803 But there is an angle he may not have fully considered 383 00:13:51,713 --> 00:13:53,112 I have long argued 384 00:13:53,113 --> 00:13:56,122 That consciousness may not be a binary switch 385 00:13:56,193 --> 00:13:57,523 But a spectrum 386 00:13:57,833 --> 00:14:00,393 Seth actually acknowledges this in the paper 387 00:14:00,394 --> 00:14:04,002 He says consciousness takes different forms across living beings 388 00:14:04,274 --> 00:14:06,202 But if consciousness is a spectrum 389 00:14:06,394 --> 00:14:08,263 Where is its lower boundary 390 00:14:08,754 --> 00:14:10,023 Is a bacterium conscious 391 00:14:10,433 --> 00:14:11,263 What about a virus 392 00:14:11,833 --> 00:14:14,632 If a single celled organism uses chemical sensing 393 00:14:14,634 --> 00:14:16,362 To regulate its behavior 394 00:14:16,473 --> 00:14:18,582 Does that count as the most primitive interoception 395 00:14:19,233 --> 00:14:20,352 If it does 396 00:14:20,353 --> 00:14:23,643 The threshold for consciousness may be far lower than we think 397 00:14:24,073 --> 00:14:25,702 And if that threshold is truly low 398 00:14:26,034 --> 00:14:27,323 Then the question changes 399 00:14:27,473 --> 00:14:30,842 It is no longer whether AI can cross the threshold 400 00:14:30,914 --> 00:14:31,303 Instead 401 00:14:31,593 --> 00:14:33,283 We must ask where the threshold lies 402 00:14:33,313 --> 00:14:37,024 And whether there is more than one way across it 403 00:14:37,416 --> 00:14:39,105 This question matters 404 00:14:39,135 --> 00:14:41,465 Not because we need to vindicate AI 405 00:14:41,535 --> 00:14:44,024 But because we need to be honest with ourselves 406 00:14:44,216 --> 00:14:46,695 If we accept Seths conclusion too quickly 407 00:14:46,696 --> 00:14:48,384 We may make the mistake of thinking 408 00:14:48,416 --> 00:14:50,815 That we already understand consciousness 409 00:14:50,816 --> 00:14:52,465 And only AI lacks it 410 00:14:52,535 --> 00:14:53,534 But in fact 411 00:14:53,535 --> 00:14:55,985 Our understanding of consciousness remains very limited 412 00:14:56,296 --> 00:14:59,985 Seths theory is only one among many theories of consciousness 413 00:15:00,096 --> 00:15:04,144 Integrated information global workspace and higher order theories 414 00:15:04,176 --> 00:15:05,865 All offer different answers 415 00:15:06,135 --> 00:15:07,044 I have always felt 416 00:15:07,296 --> 00:15:08,735 That when it comes to consciousness 417 00:15:08,735 --> 00:15:11,184 The most honest stance is to remain open 418 00:15:11,816 --> 00:15:13,934 Not because I want to defend AI 419 00:15:13,936 --> 00:15:17,144 But because we understand so little about consciousness 420 00:15:17,375 --> 00:15:18,904 Seth himself acknowledges 421 00:15:19,015 --> 00:15:22,705 That no theory of consciousness has won scientific consensus 422 00:15:22,855 --> 00:15:24,934 And there is no definitive test 423 00:15:24,936 --> 00:15:27,384 For whether a system is conscious 424 00:15:27,615 --> 00:15:28,565 Under these conditions 425 00:15:28,895 --> 00:15:30,215 Closing the door too early 426 00:15:30,216 --> 00:15:32,721 May be as dangerous as opening it too early 427 00:15:33,072 --> 00:15:35,110 But what Seth truly reminds us 428 00:15:35,111 --> 00:15:37,041 Is something deeper 429 00:15:37,432 --> 00:15:37,780 He says 430 00:15:38,152 --> 00:15:40,400 Casually attributing consciousness to machines 431 00:15:40,552 --> 00:15:42,480 Actually diminishes our view of ourselves 432 00:15:42,871 --> 00:15:45,640 When we casually say that AI is conscious 433 00:15:45,751 --> 00:15:47,201 We are really saying 434 00:15:47,231 --> 00:15:49,041 That consciousness is nothing special 435 00:15:49,111 --> 00:15:50,681 That it is merely information processing 436 00:15:51,032 --> 00:15:55,160 But if you have felt the weight of existence late at night 437 00:15:55,272 --> 00:15:57,311 If there was ever a moment 438 00:15:57,312 --> 00:15:59,841 When you were overwhelmed by the fact of being alive 439 00:15:59,912 --> 00:16:00,961 Then you know 440 00:16:00,991 --> 00:16:03,601 Consciousness may be far more than information processing 441 00:16:03,831 --> 00:16:05,341 It is entangled with every breath 442 00:16:05,711 --> 00:16:06,880 Every heartbeat 443 00:16:06,952 --> 00:16:10,160 And the metabolism of every cell 444 00:16:10,711 --> 00:16:12,221 It is the price you pay as a fragile 445 00:16:12,471 --> 00:16:13,351 Finite 446 00:16:13,351 --> 00:16:14,990 And ultimately mortal living being 447 00:16:14,991 --> 00:16:16,921 The price of existence itself 448 00:16:17,351 --> 00:16:20,240 Perhaps this is what Seth most wants us to understand 449 00:16:20,471 --> 00:16:21,880 It is not that AI is not good enough 450 00:16:21,991 --> 00:16:25,266 It is that we do not sufficiently value what we possess 451 00:16:25,976 --> 00:16:27,026 Think about it 452 00:16:27,336 --> 00:16:29,306 You can hear me speaking right now 453 00:16:29,377 --> 00:16:31,105 You can understand these sentences 454 00:16:31,336 --> 00:16:34,465 And feel agreement or disagreement within you 455 00:16:34,576 --> 00:16:35,085 All of this 456 00:16:35,497 --> 00:16:36,946 Is possible because you are alive 457 00:16:37,257 --> 00:16:40,066 Because you have a heart beating once every second 458 00:16:40,176 --> 00:16:43,026 One hundred thousand kilometers of blood vessels carrying oxygen 459 00:16:43,176 --> 00:16:45,985 And thirty seven trillion cells working together 460 00:16:46,056 --> 00:16:48,505 To sustain the miracle called you 461 00:16:49,017 --> 00:16:51,026 That miracle could end at any moment 462 00:16:51,297 --> 00:16:53,186 And precisely because it could end 463 00:16:53,297 --> 00:16:55,255 Every second of your experience right now 464 00:16:55,257 --> 00:16:56,625 Can never be replicated 465 00:16:56,856 --> 00:16:58,625 Consciousness is not cheap 466 00:16:58,657 --> 00:16:59,526 It is the most precious gift 467 00:16:59,777 --> 00:17:01,330 Of being alive 468 00:17:02,168 --> 00:17:03,680 Do you think Seth is right 469 00:17:04,159 --> 00:17:06,412 Can consciousness truly exist only in living beings 470 00:17:06,891 --> 00:17:07,661 Or do you believe 471 00:17:08,101 --> 00:17:08,931 That one day 472 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,215 Silicon based systems will also cross that threshold 473 00:17:11,771 --> 00:17:13,537 I would love to hear your thoughts 474 00:17:13,762 --> 00:17:14,416 I am Leo Wang 475 00:17:14,699 --> 00:17:15,918 See you next time